The Living Relationship Between Church and State

No one enjoys witty one liners more than I do and Rick Warren’s distinction between the separation of church and … Continued

No one enjoys witty one liners more than I do and Rick Warren’s distinction between the separation of church and state and faith and politics is a beauty. On the surface of course there is a difference. Faith is an attitude, a synonym for trust, that can be applied to just about anything from faith in a traditional God in the sky who rewards and punishes, to faith in no-God or in the seamless interdependence and Oneness of All, to faith in human beings, to faith in the man in the moon while church refers to an institutional expression of religious faith and belief. Politics is a process that happens anywhere people are living together and making decisions while the state is a particular institutional arrangement with particular rules.

What Warren is trying to say in his quip is that there should be a way for us to speak about our faith as it affects our political opinions without it dividing, polarizing, and being used coercively – the unfortunate way religious fundamentalists have used religious faith over the past two decades. There ought to be a way for us to bring all of who we are, including our faith, into our public conversations without using our faith and our understanding of God as some political trump card or in the words of Jim Wallis to bring our faith to our political debate with a humility and ever-present clarity that, “God is neither a Democrat nor a Republican”.

Of course it would have been far more comforting to those of us who are not conservative Christians if Warren had actually made this clear to his conservative church members living in one of the most conservative area codes in the country. They wildly applauded McCain’s prideful declaration of his religious belief that life begins at conception and who were extremely cool to Obama’s far more nuanced view that when life begins is beyond his expertise as he is neither a scientist nor a theologian but that one can be against abortion, as he is, recognize the seriousness with which women make the decision to have an abortion and therefore support a woman’s choice.

But let’s be honest the very fact that the two candidates felt obligated to come to Saddleback Church and answer questions from a pastor, who though far more tolerant than Robertson, Perkins, Hagee or Dobson and who possesses a more inclusive political agenda than his conservative colleagues, one that includes environment, poverty, and AIDS and not only the divisive issues of abortion, homosexuality, Creationism and prayer in school, indicates that we are indeed in a period in which we are renegotiating the line of separation between church and state. In fact, the very reason, whether consciously or unconsciously, Warren even made this joking remark was because he knew well that his Church Forum in Prime Time was obviously an expression of the renegotiation of church and state and (hopefully) he wanted to ease the tension that such change evokes.

But I actually think that in the long term this is a good thing. The separation of church and state, one of the great innovations in governing, has historically protected both religion and state from their worst impulses to abuse power. But the relationship between religion and state, like all living relationships, is dynamic and always shifting. Separation of church and state ought to be seen as a verb not a noun – an ongoing construction – and today we are in a serious period of renegotiation and recalibration of the relationship. But we need to be honest about the increasingly shrill quality of the debate. Often, the debate is less about religion and state and more an expression of liberals (secular and religious) disdain and fear of religious conservatives and religious conservatives’ absolutism and overreaching attempts to legislate their views. This is bad faith and bad for America.

The separation of church and state has become confused with keeping religious wisdom and values out of public policy discussions. This has had the dual effect of weakening, if not impoverishing, our public policy debates and of provoking an angry reaction from traditional religious people who have felt dissed, excluded, and barred from bringing their whole selves to the public square.

We need a debate that transcends both religious fundamentalists and their arrogance in imagining they know exactly what God wants for all of us and secular fundamentalists and their arrogance in thinking they know exactly what the God they do not believe in wants for all of us. America is neither France where religion is rejected nor Muslim countries where religion is the source of legislation. We are a unique experiment and one of the great qualities of America is our religious liberty. But religious liberty assumes a robust religious life in which people can and will draw on their wisdom to contribute to public policy conversation.

As we renegotiate the line between religion and state we need to address both the left’s historically legitimate fears of religious coercion and the right’s legitimate claim of the richness and depth religious values and wisdom contribute to life. We need a third way of understanding the separation between church and state – a never firmly fixed place between the religious triumphalism of the right (that simply feeds the fears of the left) and the trivialization of religion of the left (that feeds the anger of the right).

Perhaps we need more of what the right and the left both advocate. We need much more openness to public expression of religious values and wisdom (the partial truth of the right) about the profound debates in society (of course, offered in an accessible language to people from outside one’s religious community) and we need stricter institutional boundaries between religion and state (the left’s partial truth) to insure genuine religious liberty.

Paradoxically, the expansion of religious liberty (a liberal goal) requires greater openness and respect for religious expression in the public square and the openness to greater religious expression in the public square (a conservative goal) requires stricter institutional boundaries. Jews, victims of religious coercion and possessors of a great wisdom tradition, know both these truths. We have an interest in this third way. Whether this third way was indeed expressed in the Saddleback Church Forum and whether the church members who attended the Forum see themselves as models of this third way and not simply a kinder and gentler attempt to Christianize America (and make God a petty political partisan) only God can judge.

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  • Freestinker

    Harold,Do you have a particular point to make or are you just practicing your Bible quoting skills?

  • SISL

    A freethinker once sated:

  • G. D. Wymer

    Rabbi Kula, thank you. It is good to hear a man of reason. Americans tend to dislike the very word reason. In general, and I know this from my experiences in various Christian churches and communities, American christians are woefully ignorant of not only the history and meaning of their own religions, but of history and philosophy as well and have memories shorter than a goldfish in a bowl. I am what I call a non-theist. But I do respect the wisdom of faith traditions that can inform our life and political perspectives. You have presented this idea, this important idea, well. I hope more of us can come to understand what you are saying.

  • harold

    Sisl said, “I feel sorry for him, his family and anybody who has to have any kind of contact with him. He is the human depiction of lunacy.” You do not and can not understand the difference between beasts and mankind. “Lord God said unto the serpent” “thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field” “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed” “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves”“In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:The gospelsThe words of JobThe words of Solomon

  • Peter S

    To AMA:”Are the brains of the faithful physiologically different than the brains of the secular?”Why do you ask? Maybe you would like to develop a drug that “cures” religious impulses. Of course you would mandate that it be taken by all as an “Immunization” from a potentially contagious social disease.

  • Peter S

    “They wildly applauded McCain’s prideful declaration of his religious belief that life begins at conception”He did not pose this as a religious belief. Wow way to distort. Just because someone is pro-life does not make them “religious” and vice-versa.Throughout this piece you assert how intolerant Christians are. What is your basis for this? Can we have some specific examples? Probably not, because this is a standard liberal prefabricated lie with designs to somehow become standardly accepted as truth through the virtue of its prolific use as a liberal talking point.This “On Faith” forum is a liberal propaganda trap.

  • L.Kurt Engelhart

    “The separation of church and state has become confused with keeping religious wisdom and values out of public policy discussions.”Absolutely correct. Religion is an essential part of any political view. The problem is that churches, the proponents of non-evolving forms of religions, want us to believe that their form is the only form of religion. We recognize that separation of church and state is not practiced by all states, and that those states that are based on a particular church are not, and cannot be, democratic. Democracy is a political structure that has evolution built into it, unthinkable to religious dictatorships. The foundations for democracy are religious, but not in a form embraced by most churches. You might call these foundations philosophical, applied philosophy, which is actually what all religious belief is. Too bad we don’t have more education about these things. Some people believe it is prohibited by the separation of church and state. Only those wishing to promote a particular religion could believe this.

  • Judy-in-TX

    Rabbi Kula:

  • Paganplace

    See, the thing is, if this were a *negotiation,* why doesn’t it look like one?In a negotiation, people communicate with each other as equals and come to mutual accomodation. The church-state battle is all about religious conservatives trying to *take by main force,* what isn’t theirs… when they get it, they demand more and become more aggressive and hurtful. When they don’t, they whine, ‘Oh, give us half of what we wanted to take anyway, or we’ll say you’re ‘intolerant’ of our intolerance and aggression.’ That’s not a ‘negotiation.’ That’s that ‘war’ they declared. Anyone wants to negotiate about this, I think it’d be a great idea. But let’s start where we belong, as equal individual citizens with no special religious authority, but with unalienable rights. That’s the social contract called our Constitution. And the rule of law. I say, negotiation would be a great idea, instead of destructive and oft-rapacious conflict. When *I* feel secure in my rights, I’m less *threatened* by religious displays…. When people are trying to claim our government as their territory, too, their displays become a spirit of aggression and intimidation. Doesn’t have to go that way. If we stop flipping out and give this America thing a real chance. So, sure, let’s *negotiate.* But that’s not what we’ve seen yet from the Right.

  • umma

    Despite Article VI of the Constitution, which states that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States,” evangelicals today impose a religious test upon the candidates. All candidates, secular or not, appear to see some requirement that they publicly express their belief in Jesus. Did anybody believe that McCain’s expression of belief in Jesus was honest and sincere?

  • ama

    Peter S — If physiological differences are identified with some degree of reliability, you might actually be pleased with the results. Why did this question result in a defensive, suspicious reaction? In any event, thanks for commenting.

  • spiderman2

    A weird set of people. a. They believe that they came from monkeysThe terrible thing is they want these weird beliefs to be written in our Constitution. Their objective is to make the Constitution the COMIC book of the land. Truly, a weird set of people. But God is almighty. He created this world in a way that the weird will annihilate the weird. They will self destruct. Evangelicals just want to know who among the two is weird.

  • deflag

    Government punishes us and faith heals us. Take care of yourself. Everybody wants to go to heaven and nobody wants to go right now.

  • Quilla

    Thanks, Rabbi. As an Evangelical myself, I appreciate your expansion on Warren’s quip. I wish more on both sides of the aisle saw it this way.

  • patient

    We should add another aspect: the growing inability to use words with distinction. CurrentThe pandering by both McCain and Obama only served to continue the decline.

  • SISL

    Where do we draw the line between faith and government? This is what this entire article proposes but the failure is on the details. Let us examine the details closely. Imposing a set of moral values that criminalizes half of the population for an abortion based on a book called the bible can be a good place to draw the line. Let us see another example: imposing a Christian brand of religion in our public schools over any other type of faith because Christians hold the majority in this nation sounds like another good place to draw the line. Uh! let us see another one. Imposing creationism under its new repackage name which Christians call a science -intelligent design- as a viable and evidence based theory for how we are here can be another place to draw the line. How about making worlwide decisions on international policy so that we can help the God chosen israelis without any other merit than because the Bible tells us so, is another one.The list can grow exponentially big if we add the rules and regulations of the good book and rewrite our secular laws and the constitution based upon their “moral” values.Let us criminalize adultery, taking gods name in vain, working on Sundays, but oh no, the Christians cherry pick what they want to take and ignore from the good book all the time. Secularist have already given up enough ground in this so called re negotiation. Now god entered our political debates. Our candidates have to state which brand of religion they profess in order to be even considered as a viable for office. This culminated in last Saturday’s first ever faith based pastor moderated presidential debate. A total embarrassment of two presidential hopefuls. We have allowed an increasing number of ministers endorsing candidates right from the pulpit. We already allowed federal funds to flow into our increasing number of tax exempted churches to help the poor without any oversight. The line has already gotten really blurry. This has opened the flood gates and the Christian right wants more. They want for the definition of religion and faith to be no different than reason. They are calling secularism a religion. Now opposites, contradictory terms are somehow synonyms as by some form of transformation. The continuous negotiation has opened the flood gates to ignorance. Ignorance has entered our schools and our government. The point is, some things cannot be negotiated. If we continue this path, we might as well rewrite the constitution to the liking of the Christian majority and the heck with the 20 percent of nonbelievers, agnostics and non religious.

  • FAITH? IN WHAT?

    This very moment is all anybody has……no more and no less…how could it be otherwise?

  • deflag

    There’s no one liner between them. Look at a map, with all those lines. Take it to the county line and cross over. You end up in a different county. The customs are different, the churches are different and the people are different.

  • ama

    Rabbi Kula — Commentators such as yourself will frequently identify two opposing opinions on an issue, then offer a “third way.” Readers will identify somewhat with one side of the debate, then decide whether the “third way” addresses the reluctance they had in joining one of the two “teams” offered by the commentator. I don’t think that your discussion begins at the right point. Most people recognize that we are unable to answer satisfactorily the fundamental questions regarding our existence, and most people either ignore the big questions or accept that they must remain unanswered. Our brains have evolved to increase our chances of survival, not our ability to understand why we exist. It is only a significant minority that rely upon “faith” to develop answers for the unanswerable questions. The rest of us just accept the natural limitations of the human brain. The question I’d like to begin with is this: Are the brains of the faithful physiologically different than the brains of the secular? Perhaps neuroscience can help us determine why many people find it difficult to live effectively with unanswered questions. Once we understand why such people need “faith,” we can consider how the demand for this “product” effects our political campaigns.

  • harold

    Sisl said “How about making worlwide decisions on international policy so that we can help the God chosen Israelis without any other merit than because the Bible tells us so, is another one.” The Israelis are chosen because they accept the Word of the LORD. The sinners of Sodom rejected “that it was well watered every where” “even as the garden of the Lord” All other religions reject the doctrine of Moses like the wicked sinners they are. They reject the LORD and accept god as they are created in his image. This is the graven image the LORD rejects. The Faith of Jews starts with Abram/Abraham, that is why it is called Judaism, That is the name of the LORD. “My doctrine shall drop as the rain” “I will publish the name of the Lord” “I will give you rain in due season” “drinketh water of the rain of heaven” “I will rain bread from heaven for you” “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” “the trees of the field shall yield their fruit” “out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight” “the tree of life also in the midst of the garden” “good for food” “the tree of knowledge of good and evil” “the first rain and the latter rain” latter rain “I will rain bread from heaven for you” “drinketh water of the rain of heaven” “man became a living soul.” “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” That is how you have everlasting life. You are given the breath of life at birth and given the breath of life to enter Heaven. Everlasting to everlasting. The dead do not go to heaven. The so-called christians teach the gospels, to creatures. They have eternal life. That is what they are, dead. God never gave them the breath of life or a soul. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children;Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the Lord.And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.“and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where”These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,“heavens and of the earth” “earth and the heavens”And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.“My spirit shall not always strive with man”And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.“I am an hundred and twenty years old this day”Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.“Give ear, O ye heavens”That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.“save with thy right hand, and hear me”That thy beloved may be delivered: save with thy right hand, and answer me.“save with thy right hand, and answer me”Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.“I will rain bread from heaven for you”Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.“I will give you rain in due season”And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,“the first rain and the latter rain”But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.“the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season”Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.“Unto the woman he said”Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.“Moses said unto the Lord”

  • Youngj1

    I truly appreciate the author’s point of view.

  • Ash

    Hey Mr. Kula,How’s the science and technology of faith going? Had any breakthroughs lately? I heard the iGod might be released this year, any truth to that?:)

  • Ray in Texas

    Rick Warren is Jerry Falwell with a goatee (very hip, indeed). In order to be president of the US, one must bow down at the alter of Christian Fundamentalism. There is no seperation of church and state right now. There is hope. As with all religious hysterics, the tendency is to overreach. The Fundamentalists always go to far. Reasonable people see them for what they are and push them to the backbench where they belong.Christianity is just a wing of the Republican Party. It must be difficult being a conservative Jew at a time like this. You realize, of course, that the bible thumpers hate you.

  • Gaby

    When we hear more about a candidates religious beliefs than on important political issues, the small leak in the boat has become a total breach of the hull.The boat is sinking and no Ark is in sight.

  • FoxThoughts

    For one of the most reasoned responses and contributions to the ongoing discussion concerning the relationship that needs to exist between “church and state” has been written by the thoughtful Rabbi,Irwin Kula. Thank you for your written considerations!The rigidness of both right and left trying to define the nature of the separation that “needs to exist” miss the point almost entirely, though each side finds certain facts and certain principles to back their sides. It seems to be that a better direction might be obtained if we would lose our fears of what “they” (whoever they are) might think, or want, or stand for as if they were the enemy. Then, setting aside those fears along with all the presuppositions that go along with them, start giving thoughtful consideration to the nature of the relationship or relationships that ought to exist between church and state. These are two entities (or more) that do exist. Therefore, there is some sort of relationship that is called for. What needs to be avoided is the assumption of coercive power on the part of either. That is the separation that is required. Can we get beyond the nonsense of the present debate and get into real conversation about values, issues, goals, and direction? All this other is merely a distraction albeit one that has acquired monstrous dimensions so that it may seem to be someone’s main cause rather than a distraction. A person’s worldview is real to that person and cannot be ignored. It necessarily includes both state and “church.” To argue for separation in terms that mean they have nothing at all to do with one another is folly.Our predication as a separate nation among other nations is that God has given rights of liberty, life, and pursuit of happiness to all peoples. Our foundation as a nation rests on the truths behind that predication. We called them axioms or self-evident truths. To function as though there is no God and no society produced by God is a destructive fallacy and turns those truths on their heads.Thank you again, Rabbi Irwin, for speaking out and writing out your helpful insight on this issue.

  • artistkvip / keith vipperman

    i always enjoy reading your comments … not because i always agree with everything you say but because i can sense the sicerity in your points and i respect points genuininly held by others even thoush they at times are not mine.. in this one you make valid points on topics that are undeniably germaime and correct but somtimes i think the ultimate aswer is the the distilation of the truth into its essance or simplest form… i’m not claiming to do that but i have a simple test that mite be valid to one who wants to judge thier oown faith its simple but simple does not alway mean easy or somthing of little value maybe compact would be more of a correct word to use.. it would seem to me that if one truely had faith in god or the divine presences in some form greater than ourselves that has true dominion over our world then it would seem the mere act of trying to force an outcome by using too much money, to loud a voice, or denying any peaceful person thier voice… to large a demonstration would be an example of a person who has faith in them selves and other humans and not.. with God….there is a delicate balance somewhere between putting forth ideas completely and with conviction and placing it in the public domain to be decided then leaving the results to God and trusting in the outcome in public domain i think in this resct lincoln had it just right with his fool some of the people some of the time but you cant fool all the people all the time and truth speads like wildfire with the necessity of propaganda…..it seems to me in the old testament it is when the chosen peoople chose to follow thier own wisdom and and plans and designs and pursued them to the point where it was obviously to the detriment of anohter that God himself exhiled the chosen for chosing themselves instead of him.. in the new testament jesus said give unto caesar what is caesaers and give unto God what is Gods. which to me says that if people do the things they know to be honest and right in each intance within the parameters of human fallability then we can expect God to guided the results in ways we could not have imagined i think it may be true that the man or woman who thinks themselves to be indespensable.. should be dispensed with before they screw everything up maybe….

  • harold

    I ask those of the faith of Moses and David, how do you judge your non-Jewish friends? Who did David teach and try to convert, was not it sinners. What about Solomon, did not he speak to the sons of man.“ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests”And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me by thy strength.Lord my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:

  • harold

    “that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only”“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,“That in blessing I will bless thee”Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.“Behold, I send an Angel before thee”Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.“Then said David”And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,“the first rain and the latter rain”Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.“Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak”Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.“I will rain bread from heaven for you”All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.“And he humbled thee”But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.“I will give you rain in due season”Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.“Unto the woman he said”The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.“the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season”Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.“Moses said unto the Lord”Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.“The Lord your God hath multiplied you”heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.“Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much”Geber the son of Uri was in the country of Gilead, in the country of Sihon king of the Amorites, and of Og king of Bashan; and he was the only officer which was in the land.“in the land. Judah and Israel were many”

  • harold

    So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.“So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning”And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.“she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah”And Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses, was ruler of the treasures.“Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses”The son of Abinadab, in all the region of Dor; which had Taphath the daughter of Solomon to wife:“Taphath the daughter of Solomon to wife”

  • harold

    So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.“So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning”And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.babyAnd Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses, was ruler of the treasures.andreaThe son of Abinadab, in all the region of Dor; which had Taphath the daughter of Solomon to wife:kimberly