Election Day or Judgment Day for Catholics?

Feeling any pressure to cast the right vote Nov. 4? Imagine how some Roman Catholic parishioners are feeling in Missouri. … Continued

Feeling any pressure to cast the right vote Nov. 4? Imagine how some Roman Catholic parishioners are feeling in Missouri.

“Judgment Day is on its way,” Bishop Robert Herman of the Archdiocese of St. Louis wrote last week in the St. Louis Review. “For many, this coming election may very well be judgment day, for this election will measure us . . . More than anything else, this election is about saving our children or killing our children. This life issue is the overriding issue facing each of us in this coming election. All other issues, including the economy, have to take second place to the issue of life.”

Herman’s statement reflects the Roman Catholic teaching that abortion is a sin. But it also reflects a particularly political strategy, according to Catholic writer Rev. Thomas J. Reese — namely that Catholics should support candidates who want to make abortion illegal, including most Republicans. This election, though, some prominent Catholics are carefully staking out a different political course — one that encourages Catholics to consider pro-choice candidates who support social programs that reduce the need for abortion.

“The traditional pro-life strategy has been to try to make abortion illegal. This has meant supporting Republican candidates,” Reese writes in his On Faith blog. Some Catholic pro-lifers now say that’s a failed strategy. “These pro-lifers are saying . . . support (Democratic) candidates who will actually reduce the number of abortions through social programs that help women choose life when they get pregnant.”

Officially, U.S. Catholic bishops support both strategies. Two Church leaders emphasized the point again in a statement Tuesday: “Providing support for pregnant women so they choose to have their babies is a necessary but not sufficient response to abortion. Similarly, reversal of Roe (v. Wade) is a necessary but not sufficient condition for restoring an order of justice in our society’s treatment of defenseless human life,” said Cardinal Justin Rigali of Philadelphia and Bishop William Murphy of New York.

A year ago, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops tried to nip this brewing issue in the bud with a document called Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. “We Bishops have the … responsibility … to provide moral guidance on the moral dimensions of public decisions, and to encourage the faithful to carry out their responsibilities in political life,” the bishops said. “In fulfilling these responsibilities, the Church’s leaders are to avoid endorsing or opposing candidates or telling people how to vote.”

That didn’t impress Bishop Joseph Martino of Pennsylvania, who last month ordered priests in his diocese to read a letter warning that voting for a supporter of abortion rights amounts to endorsing “homicide. Sunday, he defended his acts. “No USCCB document is relevant in this diocese,” said Martino. “The USCCB doesn’t speak for me. . . The only relevant document … is my letter.”

It also didn’t impress Bishop Arthur Serratelli of New Jersey, who criticized “the present Democratic candidate” in his weekly column. “If this politician fulfills his promise, not only will many of our freedoms as Americans be taken from us, but the innocent and vulnerable will spill their blood,” Serratelli wrote.

No doubt bishops Herman, Serratelli and others who are speaking out believe they are abiding by the letter of that law, providing “moral guidance” but not endorsing or opposition specific candidates by name. But Catholics know that one position favors McCain and the other Obama. In effect, they are telling people how to vote.

As U.S. citizens, they have that right. But at least one Catholic bishop believes his colleagues have another responsibility, especially in such a divisive election season.

“Being Catholic has never been known to be an easy path to salvation,” Bishop J. Terry Steib of Memphis wrote in a pastoral letter last week.

“Jesus never promised us a rose garden devoid of hard choices. He did, in fact, tell us that if we were to be his followers, we must pick up the cross daily and follow him. Part of the cross in the upcoming election may well be in realizing that different people may in good conscience arrive at different decisions about how they will vote.”

Wouldn’t it be helpful to hear all religious leaders say that?

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  • SHeriger

    I’m a pro-life Democrat and a Christian who has long agreed with the concept of having a consistent code of ethics on key issues, with the sanctity of life being one of them. Long ago, I found it amusing that each political party was very inconsistent. Liberals had no particular interest in saving the lives of the unborn, yet railed against the death penalty and war. Conservatives want to save the unborn, but have no qualms about putting someone to death, or fighting unjust wars that kill countless thousands. Both positions are flawed. Either life is worth protecting, or it isn’t. Both sides need to do some soul-searching and make up their minds. Only through my faith have I been able to develop a consistent set of ethics, and it wasn’t easy. I struggled with it, but once I came to terms with it, I found a peace I’d never known before. I’m a male, but I’ve had a direct role in an unwanted pregnancy followed by an abortion. Looking back on that painful experience, I have come to the understanding that abortion really isn’t a “reproductive option,” but most often as become the means to deal with the unpleasant consequence of not taking enough responsibility for our actions. This was true for me as well as my girlfriend. We had many, many “reproductive options” available to us, and we were careless and cavalier with them — and as a result, a pregnancy occurred.When I look at abortion statistics, I notice two things standing out. There is a very high number of lower-income women getting them, and their number one reason for getting them is that they can’t afford a child. Missing from this statistic is the other half of the equation: the male who impregnated the woman. While I agree that it would help to work toward eliminating the social ills that drive women toward abortions, the problem actually runs much deeper, and has nothing to do with the economic status of the involved parties. An unwanted pregnancy requires two people, and the responsibility should be on the shoulders of both. We can make all the racket we want about our right to do this and our right to do that, but in the end, the problem with the majority of unwanted pregnancies boils down to the simple issue of accepting personal responsibility for our actions, and understanding the consequences of not making smart choices. This isn’t religious proselytizing, nor a judgment of others. It’s a simple observation, and bound to get many PO’d simply because nobody likes to be told that they’re irresponsible, or that they shouldn’t be able to do whatever they want as long as they don’t hurt anyone. And that’s the problem in a nutshell (taking into account the separate circumstances surrounding pregnancies caused by rape and incest). Anything leading to an unwanted pregnancy DOES hurt others, and until all parties, male and female, begin to view abortion as a moral issue that requires preventive forethought, and not a pragmatic one that deals with unpleasant consequences, nothing will change. S. Heriger

  • spidermean2

    Democrats had placed us into this mortgage mess which then put us into economic tailspin : Democrats are very soft on pouncing on future TROUBLE SPOTS like it did with the Taliban in Afghanistan and pre-911 terrorist attacks until they were successful in 911. That attack pushed us into this war.Democrats enriched communist China by having unfettered trade with them despite the fact that they are still COMMUNISTS and dangerous and oppressive to religion. China is much more dangerous today than it ever was. Thanks to Democrats’ FORESIGHT. This too will be a problem of the next president. Im glad the Dems are winning coz they would handle this coming problem. They started it, let them solve it. Democrats placed us into an OIL CRISIS because of their “green” laws. That contributed much to our economic downturn.Democrats are very tough on trade to the extreme. The world would truly miss the gentleness of the Republicans on this area. Oftentimes you won’t give idiots what they wish coz it would spell more trouble. The world want a Democrat so give them the Democrats. When these people start complaining, I want you to remember that they CHOSE this. Stupidity, BIG Democrats will fast tract abortion, gay marriage rights and everything liberal. God will not help us when these coming troubles pour at us.If Bush was “hellish”, see what real hell is once the Dems take over.

  • leokasel

    Babies who are born are far more important then unborn fetuses but you pick your votes for candidates that do not give a damn about families and babies. They will not provide an end to freedom of choice so clearly you have lost and so have all the babies born to families that cant cope.You people have had over 35 years to find methods to make the need for abortion rare, but you chose instead to elect people that gave you 10 trillion dollars in debt instead of providing for families. My dearest friend had nine children which she had to support because hubby liked to spend his own money rather than helping the kids. She could not mentally cope with a tenth baby any more so she had and abortion. All of her children turned out beautifully. She really made the right decision.

  • marcedward1

    There might be a point to this discussion if there was any chance at all that the Republican candidates would put an end to legal abortion.In short, there is no ‘pro-life’ candidate to vote for anyway, so all Catholics have a free choice when it comes to Obama and McCain.

  • theosnyder

    As a lifelong practicing Catholic who believes that abortion results in the loss of a human life, I deeply resent the efforts of some Catholic bishops to use the pro-life ethic and their positions to swing the election to McCain. They may cloak their rhetoric on the election in moral terms, but they are de facto contradicting the US Conference of Catholic Bishops statement on elections and conscience formation which highlighed the cardinal virtue of prudence. Prudence demands that we weigh many factors in deciding a course of action for ourselves and recognizes that in an imperfect world we may have to act in a morally imperfect way to achieve the best result possible under the circumstances in whoch we find ourselves. Reducing this election to Roe v. Wade in the political and economic circumstances we find ourselves cheapens the teaching office of bishop and highlights mediocrity of the men who are attempting to deliver the election to McCain. They simply way out of line and risk the tax exempt status of their dioceses while demanding Catholics act in a way that will do nothing to reduce the rate of abortions in this country.

  • paris1969

    Obama is the most pro-abortion candidate to ever present himself to the American voters. So, they choice is simple, voter for abortion or not. It is that simple.

  • marcedward1

    paris1969 writesAre you ignorant or a lair?”So, they choice is simple, voter for abortion or not. It is that simple”If you’re ignorant, yes. However as McCain will do no more than Obama to end legal abortion, the issue doesn’t matter at all. McCain will do nothing to end legal abortion, period. Catholics can morally vote for Obama, period.

  • MikeL4

    Catholics may not vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Period. To do so is to enable a serious sin. Period. The Republican candidate in this election has always voted for the pro-life position on abortion, unlike the Democrat candidate. Senator Obama supports abortion on demand. Abortion kills a human being. Period. Therefore, it is a great evil. As a practicing Catholic, to support that, is to support evil. If you do support abortion rights, you should look for another church that can support your outlook. Period.

  • MarcEdward

    MikeL4 writes There are no pro-abortion candidates running, so there’s no problem!

  • spidermean2

    “There are no pro-abortion candidates running, so there’s no problem!”This statement reminds me of how IDIOTIC leftists think. Michael Moore for many years believed it was the Pentagon who crashed land on the twin towers.America is ready to burn once the Dems take over. These people have to win so they would solve all the problems they created. Even this economic mess was their own making.The people who run Wall Street are almost all Democrats. These guys’ middle name is GARBAGE. It’s time the garbage clean up their own mess. Vote democrat and make them a spectacle of their stupidity. It would be fun watching them rule like the THREE STOOGES. The legislative, executive and judiciary.I can’t wait to laugh.

  • asoders22

    Jesus never ever said that a hierarchy of priests and bishops should form and take the space between him and every individual believer. Who do they think they are? They should shut up and go home.

  • mbc7

    When Catholic Democratic politicians lecture the Bishops on theology on national television, what choice do the Bishops have? Biden and Pelosi brought the wrath of God down upon themselves. Waters does his readers a dis-service by not mentioning this point.Democrats have had years to reach out to Catholics on abortion, but stick with the same extremist policies – some of the most liberal in the world. And when was the last time a Democrat condemned anti-Catholic hate speech in the “Arts”. Attack Islam and they all jump, attack Christianity and they just ignore it. Or defended Christmas from attacks by the secularists? You reap what you sow. Now maybe they will make up for the loss of Catholic votes this time, but in 2010 with Bush building houses with Carter, things will be different.

  • dadugganagain

    Mr. Heriger is to be commended for a first person, thoughtful, account of his own experience. Neither civil law nor Church law can ever compel the moral choices of individuals. Neither party is pro-life or pro-choice and one might say the same for Bishops who pursue a political agenda. Real people, men and women, make decisions about abortions and the quality of the lives of their born children. Until the hierarchy of the Church gets that straight, the excommunication edicts will continue to be perceived as malicious intervention.

  • stan3

    Born a Catholic, bullied through 12 years of Catholic school, I don’t understand why there still ARE Catholics. They can’t reproduce amongst the clergy; where do they come from? No one whose expoeriences with Catholicism are anything like my own could possibly still BE one. This may explain why the Catholics I do know in my community are so mean-spirited and nasty.

  • gala1

    36 hours before the polls opened in the last election, I sat in a pew as my parish priest ranted for over an hour. What he told his parishioners was that they would be accomplices to murder and stand in danger of being excommunicated (his very words) if they voted for the candidate who was not the right to life candidate. This happened in most churches in the dioceses.Over and over. The right wingers kept applauding. The first time I have ever heard applause during a sermon. I thought about getting up and walking out but I was far more fascinated to view the expressions on the other half of the church who sat in varying degrees of studied stony politeness.I had discussed this with the priest earlier in the summer reminding him that we are a country with a tradition of separating church and state and for some of us that is as sacred as gospel. I should have known he would save it all up for the very bilious end.These people have not gone anywhere or had any change in their thinking.By the way, i do not support either Obama or McCain. Because I feel that electing a president is about the person best suited to the job. Since I do not think that voting for the least of two bad ideas qualifies as that I have already written in a mail ballot for Hillary Clinton. Bu neither candidate, no matter whatever the single-issue stance may be, in my estimation can fix the situation we are in. If you can’t figure out how to write-in, then I would say that John Mccain is capable of less damage than Obama in this vanity trumps sanity mindset. John McCain is more honest but also way more rigidly blinkered. But he has had enough time to show us that his instincts have always been more or less sound. Except for positions that areas political as the are extreme. He is, after all, a politician. Palin is lamentable and should drop out now. What it would cost in money and social disruption to accommodate a religious minority will stop any politician from ever getting them much of an inroad. making something so tangential a litmus test is pure Swiftian folly.Like I said. We are screwed.

  • t2123

    Vote for McCain and how many children will die for lack of preventive health care. Making abortions illegal will not stop abortions. McCain will not make abortions illegal any more than George Bush did. They may pander to the single-issue voters, but they can’t alienate the majority of voters who don’t want the government making the most personal of decisions for them.

  • carvalhomp

    I shared this article with three devout Catholic friends. They think that the bishops should vote for their candidates as they please. After all, this is a democracy. My friends, however, don’t like to feel intimidated under any circumstance. They don’t believe that bishops, and preachers in general, are qualified to speak on behalf of political parties. Two of the three friends I consulted don’t seek, nor expect, advice from the clergy. “Clergymen are not political pundits nor political scientists, and we don’t go to church to discuss politics”, they argued. “Organizations must have their separate, especial niches if they are to fulfill their institutional missions”, they added.My three friends said repeatedly that they are afraid their church is becoming monothematic. For some bishops, they pondered, a relentless anti-abortion campaign is essential for institutional survival. This mindset, according to my friends, may result from the following conditions:- religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant for the daily life: for example, the countries with the largest majorities of Catholics in Europe (Italy, Spain, Poland, and Portugal) have the world’s lowest fertility rates, well below replacement level;- religions in general are finding it more and more difficult to- the withering of the laity has been delayed in the US due to the large influx of immigrants, who seek in the churches the support they need to adapt to a new social environment.The three concluded by saying that they never met anybody believed to be pro-abortion. They stressed the fact that most abortions result from unintended pregnancies, which are prevalent among low-income women, with little or no access to effective methods of birth control. For being so poor, they may constitute easy targets for unscrupulous politicians and fanatic preachers from different religious sects. G.P. Carvalho

  • tslats

    The point of the article was not abortion per se but the fact that the Catholic Church is telling its faithful who to vote for on the basis of their stance on abortion. Ostensibly, they are protecting life.But I think it’s perfectly legitimate then to, as others have, raise the point that McCain wholly supported a war that has killed over 100,000 Iraqis and subjected countless tens of thousands to poverty in refugee camps. I’m pretty sure all of the Iraqis would rather be alive right now. So, we have death and human suffering wholly supported (but glossed over) by one presidential candidate… and the Catholic Church feels it’s legitimate to gloss over that. It’s BS. What’s really going on here is that abortion like immigration issues are money winners for the Church. You don’t hear about other EQUALLY good issues because .. too messy. So, I’m ok with the Catholic Church banging the drum against abortion and I truly relate to Mr. Heriger’s arguments but I’m annoyed the Church is sticking its nose into this presidential race as it has. Apparently some mass killings are ok in the Church’s mind. Pity.

  • sparrow4

    “If you can’t figure out how to write-in, then I would say that John Mccain is capable of less damage than Obama in this vanity trumps sanity mindset.”and you also think McCain is more honest? I can’t for the life of me see how. He has turned his back on nearly every position he has taken, refuted long held policies, repudiated moderation, picked a running mate who is as qualified to run this country as one of the moose she’s killed over the years. McCain do less damage? You really must be kidding- the man can barely control his temper among friends and colleagues. How well would he do in delicate negotiations? How many rape and victims of incest will have to endure pregnancies because John McCain, who used to advocate choice, has turned his back on victims? And don’t get me started on the lobbyists, some of whom worked for Hussein, and who are making money even today war profiteering on the backs of our soldiers (who, by the way he didn’t think highly enough of to vote them benefits- look up his record.)do less damage than Obama? Have you not seen what is going on in his campaign? divisive, racist, hysterical, inciting people to beoieve Obama is a terrorist, or a communist? It isn’t at Obama rallies you hear people yelling “Kill him!” So you tell me, who is better able to get us back on track and working together again (hint- it ain’t the guy with an animal killer and a “g-d-given oil pipeline in the works running mate.)

  • novasearch

    As a lifelong Roman Catholic with a Master of Divinity from a Catholic Seminary, I always find some Bishops obsession with voting and the abortion issue in the US to be extrememly misguided and wrong in its focus and detrimental in its effect. The Republicans have been playing this tired anti-abortion game for votes, but have not managed to eliminate abortion rights even when they held the White House, Congress and numerous state houses. Why? Because they love to talk about abortion but don’t really want to end it. The Catholic Bishops that jump on the Republican band wagon and issue these pastoral letters to their Diocese are doing their flocks a great disservice. It places a moral imperative on their people that would have them believe that abortion is somehow the only issue of consience that their vote will affect. I don’t know what the Republican Party does to court and buy off these Bishops but the Bishops are very foolish to buy what they are selling. the GOP has coopted their moral leadership for cheap political gain, and the Bishops have let them do it. The Republican Party has no plan to take away abortion rights for everyone. They are willing to pass legislation that makes life more difficult for poor and minority women, two demographics they couldn’t care less about. These Bishops are foolish to buy what the party is selling.The numerous policies of the Republican era have led to an increase in the abortion rate since the Clinton administration. The Catholic Church is clearly against capital punishment – Republicans enthusiastly support it.The Bishops decision to cozy up to the Republican Party has become more and more solidified over the past 8 years. I am offended by the hierarchy’s intrusion into the voting booth and find it to be distressing in its oversimplistic obsession with abortion. There are many factors that play into a consistant pro-life ethic. On the whole, the Democrats will set a direction that support the lives of the living. Happy, healthy and secure adults will provide a more welcoming family for their born and unborn children. My advice to Cathlolics – Don’t buy the line that they are selling on this one. They have no business hitching the Catholic Votes to a failed party. Vote your own consicience, the Vatican Council has already ruled that the individual’s consience is the highest source of authority for moral decision making.

  • sparrow4

    matthew- and you don’t think there are more important issues for the living? How many soldiers need to die in Iraq for nothing? How many people should have to die because they can’t afford medical care? How many more jobs should go overseas because the Republican party panders to the big corporations and refuses to hold them accountable for anything? How much destruction to the climate should we look forward to because the republicans are more afraid of losing their CEO friends than they are of saving the planet. But by all means worry more about what people have the right to do in private and think that makes you “moral” or “Christian.”By all means the bishop has a right to teach morality as the Church defines it. But to use it to tell people how to vote? To tell people it is more important to protect a fertilized egg than a human being or a planet? To abuse their tax-exempt status to try to determine an election? You would have to be living in a total vacuum to pick this one issue as the determining factor in who you vote for.Wow- if that’s your idea of moral and just, I hate to see what you think is immoral and unjust.

  • Swing-Voter

    I am pro-life, and against capital punishment. I will gladly cast my FL ballot for Obama come Nov. 4, 2008.My sister already voted via absentee and voted for Obama. I voted for Bush last time and it’s time to move beyond politics of demonetization of our opponents. At this point, Obama only loses my vote if it were to come out he is into baby trafficking and kicks puppies for fun.

  • sparrow4

    matthew- and you don’t think there are more important issues for the living? How many soldiers need to die in Iraq for nothing? How many people should have to die because they can’t afford medical care? How many more jobs should go overseas because the Republican party panders to the big corporations and refuses to hold them accountable for anything? How much destruction to the climate should we look forward to because the republicans are more afraid of losing their CEO friends than they are of saving the planet. But by all means worry more about what people have the right to do in private and think that makes you “moral” or “Christian.”By all means the bishop has a right to teach morality as the Church defines it. But to use it to tell people how to vote? To tell people it is more important to protect a fertilized egg than a human being or a planet? To abuse their tax-exempt status to try to determine an election? You would have to be living in a total vacuum to pick this one issue as the determining factor in who you vote for.Wow- if that’s your idea of moral and just, I hate to see what you think is immoral and unjust.

  • dhiggins1939

    With complete control of the executive and legislative branches for over six years the Republicans under Bush’s leadership did NOTHING about abortion. What makes you think McCain would do anything?

  • DC12

    re: “SPIDERMEAN” Maybe I am wrong but I and pretty sure the Republicans held a veto proof majority for the last eight years.By the way, you and all the Church officials should read or reread “The Handmaids Tale”. The story of a country (and religion) gone very, very bad.

  • DwightHCollins

    A women is guilty of the sin of murder abortion of her child…

  • DwightHCollins

    to keep his promise to black leaders, watch for obama’s administration to abort more latino born babies…

  • sarahabc

    It must be nice to see things so black and white and to be able to overlook all those children who might be helped with issues also aligned closely with being a Democrat – affordable health care and housing, job creation, protecting the environment, having war be a last resort rather than a hasty & uninformed decision, etc.

  • spidermean2

    “AND I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH.” (Remember this coz it’s gonna happen)Jezebel is referred to as the corrupt woman, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. SHE IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF DEMOCRATS. Her descriptions in the Bible are similar to the people which comprise the core of the Democratic Party – abortionists, gay marriage, hollywood sex, liberalism, atheism, paganism, etc.If you people think you are a Christian and is voting for Democrats, you are sorely mistaken. You are voting for the DESTRUCTION of America similarly as what Jezebel caused her destruction from the hands of God.WAKE UP AMERICA OR PERISH.”Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 AND I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: “

  • Arminius

    Spidey should turn from his evil, bloodthirsty ways, and remember this:Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.Please pray for Spidey.

  • flyersout

    Hand this child molesting “bishop”Knowinso H. Jones

  • sparrow4

    dwightcollins:”to keep his promise to black leaders, watch for obama’s administration to abort more latino born babies… “this is a great example of why it is so difficult to have an intelligent, rational discussion on these blogs. There will always be people who buy the “party line” hook, line and sinker. No fact checking needed. No thinking wanted. I envision a guy like dwight living in his 1950’s era fallout shelter, always sitting and facing the door with his little rifle and a packet of beef jerky, protecting himself from the Blacks and the commies. But perhaps I am wrong- look how much he cares about latino children. It’s a rare white supremacist who cares about children of color. gee- he crossed that rainbow Bridge…..oh wait… thats for pets.

  • sparrow4

    That said, if the bishops want to have a say in the political process, the Church should pay taxes and I hope the IRS will investigate their using their pulpit for political purposes.

  • zjr78xva

    dhiggins1939 wrongly complains that the Republicans “did nothing”. There’s a simple test here: Whom is the abortion industry supporting, and how passionately?Needless to say, NARAL is frothing at the mouth for Obama. That’s because Obama takes the most extreme position on abortion of any candidate ever. Obama promised the abortion industry that its full unlimited agenda (including FOCA) will be his NUMBER ONE priority — that’s right, ahead of every other issue! With the hard left in control of all branches of the federal government, there will be no check or balance against such extremism. For this reason no person of conscience, of any faith or no faith, can vote for Obama.Pres. Bush signed the ban on partial-birth abortion that Clinton vetoed. (Obama would even deny medical care to persons born alive as the result of a botched abortion!) Pres. Bush’s judicial nominees at all levels subscribe to the principle of judicial restraint so savagely violated by Roe. Pres. Bush made numerous pro-life appointments to the executive branch, and protected against taxpayer funding of foreign abortions. Again, if you don’t believe it, consult the abortion industry.While the decision to depose Saddam Hussein entails serious moral concerns, there is not the least comparison to abortion when you consider the comparative scale. Another crucial distinction: Every abortion is an intentional killing. In any event, the level of violence has subsided thanks to the efforts of our military and Sen. McCain’s strategy. No end is in sight for abortion.dhiggins1939 also misstates the length of time Republicans were in control. Democrats controlled the Senate for most of Pres. Bush’s first two years in office. GOP control of both houses and the White House was only four years.The Republicans are the lesser of two evils. But the Democrats champion the abortion industry and don’t even bother to pay lip service to life.

  • DwightHCollins

    ” sparrow4 Author Profile Page:pendejo, I am a latino…

  • DwightHCollins

    ” novasearch Author Profile Page:if you are pro choice you are not a member of the roman Catholic Church, you belong to another religion…thats what my Priest said during the sermon…

  • zjr78xva

    novasearch, despite her/his claimed credentials, grossly distorts several points of Catholic teaching. Without heading off into that whole swamp, I would urge her/him to go back to school concerning the primacy of conscience:My responsibility is FIRST to INFORM my conscience, and only THEN to FOLLOW it. Using the principle of the primacy of conscience as a rationalization for what I would have done anyway is a grave error with dire consequences.

  • DwightHCollins

    ” jerkhoff Author Profile Page:it’s your choice to not be a Catholic, so stop being a baby and stop crying…

  • jonesw1

    The bishops seem to have forgotten that they live in a society where not all people of faith and good will believe that human life begins at the moment an egg is fertilized and thus in a pluralistic society it is wrong to criminalize an action that not all believe is wrong. Abortion was common long before Roe vs Wade and few if any people stopped drinking because prohibition made it illegal. Far better to work to reduce the demand for abortion. Few people believe abortion is preferable to birth control although friends who have volunteered in a crisis pregnancy center have told me of women who have had three abortions because they believed birth control was a greater sin.

  • dennob

    It was not until the 1930s that the Catholic Church created the doctrine that life begins at conception and abortion is a mortal sin. (except for a very brief period in the middle ages). The first great debate about abortion in this country occurred in the late 1800s with the birth of the American Medical Association. The AMA, in a campaign to force midwives out of prenatal and birthing medical practice, argued that life began at conception and the only doctors were qualified to practice in these areas. Until the creation of the American Medical Association, doctors rarely practiced in prenatal care and childbirth. The Church sat out the debate, taking no position.

  • Rwilks3328

    Great!! It is only judgement day for Catholics and since I am not one of “them” that means I can choose as I please in Catholics Only Judgement Day!

  • helloisanyoneoutthere

    First I would need to ask Bishop Robert Herman of the Archdiocese of St. Louis that if he believes that John McCain would deliver a law prohibiting abortion, where was John McCain when the Republicans held the White House, a majority in the Senate, a majority in the House, and a conservative Supreme Court at his behest? I’m sorry I don’t recall ever hearing any Republican proposing a law banning abortion.Bishop Herman knows that it would be political suicide for anyone, regardless of party affiliation, to attempt to pass a law banning abortion. Therefore it wouldn’t happen.And if abortion were to be made illegal the question must be asked: Who will be there to pick up the pieces?The Roman Catholic Church was never there to support those looking for an answer prior to the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision. I must also ask where was the Roman Catholic Church’s support of former political candidates for office who ran under an Anti-Abortion Party banner. No one is in favor of aborting the unborn. To label those in favor of a woman’s right to choose as “Pro-Abortion” is simply ridiculous.

  • MikeKF

    I’ll give Bishop Serratelli some slack on the abortion issue as he preaches to the choir. but what about “If this politician fulfills his promise, not only will many of our freedoms as Americans be taken from us…” The bishop should be invited to list exactly what freedoms as Americans will be taken from us under Obama. Sounds like the bishop is way over the line in that part of his statement and should certainly be censured by Rome and investigated by the IRS. He’s merely a shill for the GOP.

  • sparrow4

    “dwightcollins:”to keep his promise to black leaders, watch for obama’s administration to abort more latino born babies… “”I”m a bigot?? after you wrote this?? ROTFLMAO. “if you are pro choice you are not a member of the roman Catholic Church, you belong to another religion…thats what my Priest said during the sermon…” Your priest and Church should pay taxes for campaigning from the pulpit. But I guess he has no conscience about breaking US laws regarding the tax status of religious organizations. I believe it is called “theft.” and you trust this priest to tell you about morality? Again, ROTFLMAO

  • Garak

    dennob: Your comment is fascinating. Could you post some cites to further reading on this issue?

  • sparrow4

    dwighthcollins:”blacks will become a skidmark on the political scene should these latinos unite and pick one of their own to represent them, goodbye maxine waters…”and may I quote this other remark of yours? I just bet you are a latino- about as Latino as Adolph Hitler.

  • awkword

    I’ve been a Catholic for all of my life and always thought that Catholics were to feed the hungry, care for the sick, and help the poor. It angers me when I see Catholic priests focusing in on one candidate who may not believe in abortion, but wants to cut health programs like medicare and make it harder for people to afford health insurance. Or that working to cut down the amount of women who want abortion by teaching about contraception and alternatives to abortion is wrong. Shouldn’t being pro life meant that you are against capital punishment as well. It is so frustrating to be accused of not being Catholic enough for choosing a candidate based on issues other than abortion which should be just as important to church leaders if they really believed what they preach during non election years.

  • RichfromPhilly

    I’ve always been fascinated about those who would let the clergy tell them how to vote, especially when it is to push single issue, “vote this way or burn in hell” positions. Historically the church, particulalrly the Roman Catholic Church has been a strong supporter of the establishment. They are one of the wealthiest parties on earth and want to preserve tax deductions and tax preferences; the church also wants taxpayer funding for Catholic schools. This has been the case throughout history–the church built its strength and position by supporting the royalty throughout the ages. When the French revolution occurred, some of the clergy were as reviled as Marie Antionette. And, their fate was often the same. Decisions about pro life and pro choice are ones that people make. Where it becomes a problem is when the church says one has to vote for the “pro life” party, even after it astarted a war on fallse pretenses that has killed over a 100,000 actual people. It is good to see some in the church rebel and go back to looking at all sides of the issue. One concept, the just war, has been a long part of Catholic thought. Catholics elected George Bush because he was pro-life. The record suggests he was anything but this.

  • fricardo

    I don’t see how a Bishop, can tell his flock to forego the basic social responsiblities.I know people who voted W because he was “saving the babies.” Maybe they should talk with a few Iraqi mothers on this issue.

  • cthesis

    Pro-life voters, and particularly Catholics, are used, manipulated, and taken for granted by a cynical Republican political machine that stands for nothing but Moloch-worship and faith in the Invisible Hand of the Market.When was the last time a national Republican politician risked something on behalf of the pro-life movement?Who was the last Republican president that even discussed a Constitutional amendment banning abortion? There have been plenty of such discussions to ban the burning of the flag — which is, after all, just a piece of cloth. To prevent the destruction of unborn human life, which they say is so precious to them, they do nothing.This same party has ignored pleas by last pope to end the death penalty and work for peace in the Middle East. Pope John Paul II unambiguously opposed the War in Iraq and the Republicans, good Christians that they are, completely ignored him to secure a second term for Bush.If you are pro-life, consider this: one of the most powerful Democrats in the country right now, the Majority Leader in the Senate, is a pro-life Democrat.I call upon Catholics to rejoin the party that shares their overall views. Rejoin the party that was there for your fathers and grandfathers when they first immigrated to America. True, you’ll have to fight if you return to the Democratic party. But all party politics is a fight.The question is, which party is worth fighting for? The party that has abused and misled you for the last thirty years, or the party by and large shares your values.

  • spidermean2

    WITHIN 10 DAYS, DOOM WILL BE IRREVERSIBLE. REMEMBER AMERICA, YOU CHOSED THIS. Bin Ladin wants Obama to win. The gays and lesbians. the atheists, the pagans, the abortionists, the ultra liberals, the Russians, the leftist part of Europe, the Islamic extremists, the Wall Steet traders. The Democratic Congress put us into this mortgage mess. The stock market dive was caused by greedy traders who were mostly Democrats. China’s rise to super rich status was initiated by Bill Clinton’s trade arrangements with it despite its still being a communist state and repression to religion. Not only did it made China more dangerous but also led to massive trade deficits undemining the U.S economy. Good if China is our ally like Japan but it’s not.Even this Afghan and Iraq war was casued by bill Clinton’s wrong policy with Afghanistan. Bin Ladin even trained his men to fly planes in the U.S. What is at stake is a full control of democrats to 3 branches of government. WITHIN 10 DAYS, DOOM WILL BE IRREVERSIBLE. REMEMBER AMERICA, YOU CHOSED THIS.

  • spidermean2

    Conservative Christian Republicans will rule the world. Why and how? It is in the prophecy. This may be the last time (or second to the last) Democrats will win the presidency. God does not see them fit to rule. Here is His prophecy.”And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. “That is the prophecy and nobody can disannul it. For the liberal Democrats who think their day has come. Sorry folks coz it’s not gonna last that long. The Democratic Party’s platform is way too liberal for the taste of God. That is the liberal Democrats’ future. There is no place for them under the sun. As the song says “This is my Father’s world”. What is not part of my Father’s world like abortion, gay marriage, liberal values will be disposed of.Preachers like Dobson and conservative Christians like Palin have no power. The power comes from God. The power is a gift to anybody who believes. The good part is these two people believe and so are the majority of Republicans. “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, SEVERITY; but toward thee, GOODNESS, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF. (Romans 11:22)

  • spidermean2

    Idiots are those who link Catholics to Republicans. Almost all Catholics are Democrats. Without them, this abortion issue would not even be an issue. It’s been inexistent until Catholics overun America.

  • zjr78xva

    A commenter below speaks of “one candidate who may not believe in abortion, but wants to cut health programs like medicare and make it harder for people to afford health insurance.”Gee, you might have a point — if there were such a candidate. But there isn’t.Maybe the bishops should just focus on exhorting voters to be fully informed. Then everyone but the abortion industry would win.

  • novasearch

    It is sad to see how many comments on this page show the very poor education that Catholics get in their faith. DWIGHTCOLLINS. I never said that I was proabortion and in fact I am not. I just say that the Republican party is offering a false choice and the Chuch is foolish to accept their words on face value. Our Church would be a more welcoming place with more people in the pews if some Catholics weren’t so quick to pronounce others as “not members of the Church.” ZJ78XVA dismisses my entire agrument by attacking my credentials and specifing some conditions under which a Catholic my exercize their consicence. I did not say that the consience does not have to be informed, or that statements of the magisterium don’t have to be factored in to that process, just that at the end of the day it is the individual Catholic who is making the decision and will have to act on the dictate of their conscience. You were unable to refute any of my individual points that illustrate how Catholic teaching is undermined by Republican party positions on a daily basis. My point stands – it is not such a clear choice as some Bishops would have their faithful believe. Anyone who has bought the line that a vote for McCain/Palin is equal to a vote for the end of abortions in this country has been duped. The GOP has proven over many years that it is not about to put an end to abortions, and when they were at the height of their politcal power they did not make the right to life agenda a very high priority.

  • tschnorr48

    I, like many who have posted here, had 12 years of Catholic school and stayed an active Catholic through college solely thanks to the liberal Catholic groups who were opposed to Vietnam. I no am comfortable affiliated with a tolerant, embracing, accepting UCC congregation (where perhaps not surprisingly, at least 40% of the members are former Catholics…remember that “God is still speaking and still listening.”Someone please tell me how the venom and intolerance that spidermean2 preaches differs from that promoted by the Taliban and other fundamentalist Islamists, not to mention the spiteful, one-issue evangelical Christian right?In high school religion classes I learned that Christ brought a fundamentally and frankly revolutionary new covenant to the world, one that was to replace the tribal-based narrow-minded religions and cultures that preceded his life (and that sadly still reign in many parts of the world today). Christianity, as taught by Christ at the Sermon on the Mount and by his life, is inclusionary, accepting of difference and forgiving, not spiteful, not rejecting of those “outside our your tribe” and welcomes all of God’s children, whether white, black, gay, straight, male or female.

  • sparrow4

    “Here is His prophecy.”And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. “Ah- our resident mouthpiece of the Lord, spidey speaketh. of course he never considers which “he” this prophecy refers to because spidey has the personal word of G-d. I’m always surprised how often spidey gets to post. I would have thought other patients would also use the computer in the community room.

  • sparrow4

    tschnorr48- the answer is that spidey’s personal hell is one he’d like us all to share in. He is no different than the Taliban, or Al Qaeda or timothy McVeigh or any other rabid terrorist. Can you imagine the kind of life he has? Ugly, bloody, full of death, doom and destruction. He’s already in hell and the sad thing is he just wants everyone else with him. The only thing you can really do is feel sorry for him. As rabid as he is, that great is his fear and loathing of people. Nothing sadder than that.

  • jerkhoff

    To DwightHCollins: I’ll take my chances. My belief is that if God wanted us to act like a bunch of dumb beasts, he would have made us stupid. We have brains because we are supposed to use them. And that means making our own decisions about what is right and wrong, rather than simply assuming that Catholic bishops or anyone else has some kind of direct pipeline to God. The biggest affront to God is for a human being to presume to know his will, but he sure seems to have a lot of supporters in this day and age who think they have the right to speak for him.Now if it turns out I was wrong, and that God is really an evil tyrant who insists on mindless adherence to whatever venom spits out of the mouths of his self-appointed representatives on earth, then I guess I’m probably better off suffering the eternal flames of Hell. In which case, I hope you’ll toss a copper to this poor old derelict as you pass by on your golden cloud…

  • vicsoir

    There are more important considerations for voters in this upcoming election than religions and their attempt to influence their flocks with edicts emanating from the fossilized mindsets of men whose education is ignorant of history and blind to the progressive rationale outside of their cocoons.

  • zosui

    The ‘morality’ of abortion is so starkly simple that it is amazing that millions (religious or not) even take the time to think about it, much less bomb clinics over it. Those who oppose it are simply living in a fantasy world in which they think that having an abortion will result in some change to a ‘predestined’ outcome dictacted by the notion that one or two people are responsible, via a socially sanctioned custom, to carry through with the conception and birth of a child. The idea is pure nonsense. There’s no point in the details. A cell is a cell is a cell and if the childbearer is in danger there is no question that she should be saved or given her own choice in the matter. Nothing in nature tells us that at the moment a woman becomes pregnant there is a mandate to give birth. Nothing. The Bible? Excuse me but the Bible says nothing about abortion. It does however dwell at length on the immorality of sex, within or without the bonds of matrimony. The ‘great’ conflict over abortion is a cultural phenomenon born of the swift progress science has made in making the procedure swift and relatively inexpensive. Those who cannot accept it are caught in the backwards drift of organized religion and ‘traditional’ morality. For them, every abortion is the murder of a sentient human being. There is no lie more insidious than this notion that millions of babies are having their heads wrenched off while still in the uterus. It passes for fact with a sad majority. But I wouldn’t blame them. Humanity has evolved faster in 100 years than in the last 10,000 or so. Those of you reading this might want to ponder that and ask yourself – in who’s interest is it to stop you from having sex? And if they don’t want you to have sex – why would they be so fanatic about wanting you to carry pregnancy to its ultimatum once you have? Pro-lifers are either severely misinformed about the nature of abortion, or cling stubbornely to fantastic and wild notions about the universe, their role in it, and why holding to those views is so importatnt. This is a matter of psychology, not of debate. A person who has grown up to be indoctrinated against abortion will most likely remain so due to both internal and external pressures, and not least importantly a general inability to reason.It may come as a surprise to some, but population control is one of our best chances for continued survival – as our wits have far outpaced our wisdom since the Industrial Revolution. To argue against the legality of abortion is no less than suicide. Lamentably, if the current trend continues, we will all see the consequences of giving in to those who prefer self-annihilation in defense of tradition and belief. And why? Well here you hit the heart of the ‘traditional values’ and moral majority camp – it is better to die and take everyone else with you than it is to admit that you are wrong. Sound like someone you know?

  • Barnes848

    I was raised as a Catholic, attended Catholic grammar school, high school, graduated from Catholic college and graduate school and know something about the institution’s history. Bishops have been involved in national politics since there have been bishops. Why? Because like any institution they need to assert their authority every now and then to retain control.This has nothing to do with any real and every day concept of living the Chrisitan Faith in the Catholic religion. It is nonsense. What a woman does with her body is her business when it involves something that may or may not be human life. We still do not know.The bishops have allowed little boys to be raped and molested by Catholic Religious of both sexes since the beginning of the Church. That has been more than proven by now. I was sexually and physically molested by nuns as a child and propositioned by a nun when I was a 19 year old seminarian. She was 41. The Church organization is corrupt to its heart.The bishops can all rot in hell.Thomas Michael Barnes

  • Arminius

    Hi, Sparrow,I guess Spidey bullies his way to the computer, screaming hellfire and damnation. What is puzzling is how he manages to type with a straitjacket on… must use his nose.

  • jerkhoff

    This garbage is the reason why I am no longer a Catholic. The idea that a politician’s view towards abortion is the single issue which defines him — this is the kind of absolutist thinking which has made the Church look ridiculous for the past 500 years. I guess in some quarters the world is still flat.If the Catholic Church would like to become a political organization, I would love to welcome it to the ranks of taxpayers. It is illegal for a nonprofit organization to advocate for a particular candidate — which of course is what this is really all about — certain elements of the Catholic Church happen to also be heavily Republican.Give up your tax-exempt status, and THEN you can grab a bullhorn and start telling American citizens who to vote for. As long as you remain tax-exempt, FOLLOW THE LAW AND STAY OUT OF POLITICS…

  • hmaulden

    When the Pope and his Bishops all become CONSISTENT “Pro-Lifers,” then they will have some credibility on issues of conscience. This means they all need to teach consistent pro-life: (1) no killing for your country (pacifism), (2) no death penalty, and (3) no abortion (without education).While we are at it, the Pope complains about Iraq and Indian Christians getting killed. What about the 100,000+ Iraqi muslim CIVILIANS who have been killed by Coalition forces? The Pope needs to do his job better. My cat could do better and she can’t even read the New Testament.The problem is the Pope is not willing to risk the wrath of national political leaders for true pro-life (read, pacifism) leadership. Gee, do you think Jesus would be more interested in protecting his privileged status or leading his flock in spite of political consequences? BTW: my criticism of the pope applies just as well to most Protestant (so-called) leaders.

  • spidermean2

    I don’t invent my own doctrine. If you guys only read your Bible, it teaches about Hell. “he that believeth NOT, is CONDEMNED already” It’s there folks. Don’t close your eyes and minds. The blidness is so severe.

  • j2hess

    Matthew_DC : For me, it is a matter of principle.I am anti-abortion, and pro-choice.I believe that there must be limits to the power of the state to intervene in our most intimate decisions. Without limits to state power, there is no liberty. This unfortunately means that there will be abortions. There are already miscarriages; about 15% of pregnancies in the statistics, higher if you include all those that occurred before they were recorded as pregnancies. God takes care of the innocent.The Church, meanwhile, is distracted from it’s mission of leading people to salvation by the attractions of imposing justice by law. Jesus could have come as a king, but he didn’t. He could have pursued the favors officials but he didn’t. He taught, he healed. He counselled that evil would be with us always, but to care for one another. I see little of Jesus in some of these bishops.

  • EnemyOfTheState

    I don’t believe for a second that the Catholic Church – or any church – really cares about life. This is about power over women, period.

  • kaj_pagan

    “Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 AND I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: “That pretty much sums up God’s view on the murder of innocent children. Case closed. Moving along?

  • rpike

    Bible implicitly states abortion is okay with God.Verbatim quote from the Bible, Book of Numbers, Chapter 5, verse 27-28″And when he hath made her drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.” (Numbers 5:27-28)CommentRegardless of how ridiculous this procedure seems, any person who believes every word of the Bible must come to terms with the realization that the quoted God here sometimes authorizes abortion.(also see Num. 5:1-25)

  • DwightHCollins

    ” jerkhoff Author Profile Page:you don’t get it, you never will…

  • DwightHCollins

    ” novasearch Author Profile Page:being a Catholic is not like joining the mickey mouse club, there are rituals we do to be catholics…

  • DwightHCollins

    ” sparrow4 Author Profile Page:believe what you will, I know who I am and don’t need putas like you to define me…

  • DwightHCollins

    On Faith isn’t about Faith because there should be no place for politics in Faith…

  • sparrow4

    marymiserable- you seem to be of the opinion that anyone who is pro-choice has to be morally repugnant and incapable of ethics. that is patently untrue and it is predicated on a late invention of the Church- its definition of when life begins. Instead of agreeing that others believe differently, or accepting their right to do so, So-called Pro-lifers would have us buy into the “either you agree with us or you are evil” scenario. I don’t buy it. especially when there is so little outrage over sending our young people to die in places and for reasons that had nothig to do with 9-11, or we can’t be outraged over the state of the earth we will be leaving our children. When you worry as much about the life in the world as you do over the unborn, when you care for the children who are abused, beaten to death or starving everyday as much as you worry over an group of dividing cells, then I will take you seriously.

  • AlexP1

    …“Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered,” 1 Peter 3:7. When a person sees a vase broken to pieces on the pavement they undoubtedly walk passed it considering it trash. When a person sees exploited immigrants, abused women and the homeless so too do they often consider it hopeless and avert their eyes. But it is the living God who says, “I will not despise a broken and contrite heart.” It is the living God who sees brokeness as an opportunity to reveal himself and manifest his glory. It is the living God who reconciles, restores and redeems that which was formerly lost. And it is through his people that he manifests himself. Jeremiah wrote: “This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.”

  • BobbyMiami

    Excuse me for raining on this parade, but what about all those children and women we are killing in Iraq and every other place in the world we want to police?What about the thousands of children that die every day of hunger and disease in our country and the world? Do I hear any concerns about that?And what about the torture chambers our military has devised in order for prisoners to be subdue to lie because they have no other choice…Get off the wagon people, don’t you think that our God looks down and is repulse by all of this, and you knock a man like Obama that can do a lot of good for this country, a respectable man and a smart one at that, a professor of Law a leader of man and women and just because he wants a woman to have a choice he’s a bad person.What is the difference if you devastate a child’s’ life by neglect and lack of love because you ARE SO BUSY WORKING TO PAY FOR THE NEW CAR or other indulgences in your life and can’t be home on time to care for that child and help him/her with homework or other needs a child has, give me a break please. Look around and than be judgmental to a person like Obama, that wants to leave this choice to a women or a couple for that matter.One more thing, tell all those priest of the Catholic Religion to look in their closet and see all of the skeletons they are hiding, and also tell them that our Salvation is very near and they will be the first ones to be judged.Bobby….

  • nana4

    In my archdiocese which serves South Texas, the mortality rate of infants and small children who die from physical abuse and neglect is one a month for the past 13 months. The methods used grow more creative and horrid with each report. The OB service of the Catholic hospital is populated with mothers aged 13yrs to 21yrs. It is almost a rite of passage to deliver your first baby at age 13yrs.The Catholic Church is absolutely silent on this topic. With ample opportunity and standing in the community to take a position on physical abuse, neglect, and these murders, not one word; not one program.The Catholic Church can preach, moralize, condemn ProChoice politicians and voters all they want. It does not affect my choice of candidate. I will not listen to the Church on this topic until they address the murder of these childrens after they are carried to term and brought to life.

  • spidermean2

    The next few years will be a big headache for America. That’s how I understand the prophecy. No wonder that the Dems are winning and taking over 3 branches of the government.It only makes sense coz they will be the cause of that BIG trouble.It would be Judgment time, indeed.

  • Alex511

    There are a couple of “churches” near where I live that have a LARGE slavic population AND have yes on 8 signs on the churchgrounds. I suggest if they want to keep that precious tax exempt status that they pull the signs NOW.

  • sparrow4

    “believe what you will, I know who I am and don’t need putas like you to define me…”and you call yourself a Christian? Not to mention, anyone with high school spanish can toss out a word like puta. It takes a real man to have a conversation without descending into the stupidity and futility of racism. I’d call you a putz, but that would imply I thought you had balls. But you do have alternatives, dwight. If this country is not to your taste, there are plenty of other places you could go. Sorry, Nazi Germany no longer exists but if you pick up a few courses in Arabic, there’s a guy hiding out in the mountains of Afghanistan who could use you.

  • DMZ1

    Let’s review some facts here:1- John McCain cannot end legal abortion even if he wanted to do so. Half the population supports legal abortion so any attempt to amend the Constitution would fail.Abortion, legal or otherwise, is here to stay whether you like it or not. If you really want to reduce the number of abortions, then you need to support accurate and comprehensive sex education and widely available, inexpensive and effective birth control. The Catholic church opposes both of these items.

  • ravitchn

    What will do the Catholic church in is not liberal criticism but the fact that its membership is increasingly becoming Hispanic. Hispanics never contribute to the church; coming from feudal conditions they believe that the church should contribute to them.

  • ThomasBaum

    ZOSUIYou wrote, ” Humanity has evolved faster in 100 years than in the last 10,000 or so.”.In what way?Our knowledge of the physical world has increased but has our treatment of others evolved?Or has it devolved?You mentioned 100 years, look back at the last 100 years, they have been some of the most barbarous times in the history of man, don’t you think?Reality is reality, all of it, not just part of it.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • sparrow4

    And there you have it. Ravitchn and dwighthcollins- 2 sides of the same ugly racist stupidity coin. Just makes my little American heart swell with….disgust.

  • ScottChallenger

    Great. Bishops in the Cathoic church explaining politics to their congregations. THEY CAN’T EVEN EXPLAIN WHY GOD MADE HOMOSEXUALS. No wonder the anti-intelligent crowd never gets it right. Ignorance must be bliss.

  • BobbyMiami

    Sparrow4, I agree on your point of view, but the problem with our country is that we are so divided in our ways ( maybe this is because we are a democratic society?).We must understand this, go back to simple basics, put our country back to what it was, a Beacon for the World. How many citizens are losing their home because of unscrupulous bankers and mortgage writers, how many citizens have lost their live savings in 401k’s because of unscrupulous CEO’s, they have their money, they are laughing at us and now the government takes our hard earn money to pay them more because they haven’t had enough of this greed.We have a War that is costing billions (we are trying to change a society in Iraq that doesn’t want to be changed,I believe we have shown the world that if they bomb our cities they will have HELL to pay)for that we have to borrow from the Federal Reserve( a private entity for those of you that are not aware, make more money for the millionaires)to pay for and we keep getting deeper into the hole, what is going to happen when the baby boomers retire (I’m one of them), are we going to have enough money to pay their retirement and their health care?Wake up America, Bushonomics has gone far enough,America do your homework and then vote, don’t let an issue like abortion blind you to the truth.Bobby

  • ThomasBaum

    NOVASEARCHYou wrote, ” Vote your own consicience, the Vatican Council has already ruled that the individual’s consience is the highest source of authority for moral decision making.”How true.This also seems to be the reason why there are some that seem to be ticked off that the Second Vatican Council actually happened and they seem to want to shutter up the “window” where the breath of fresh air, as in the Holy Spirit, was let in.God’s Plan, which is for ALL to be with Him in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, will come to Fruition.Jesus said a lot of things and one of the things that He said is quite interesting and worth thinking about and that is, “If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL MEN [HUMANITY] to Myself”.Some of the clergy don’t have a clue, but even the ones that know what they are talking about, do not have the right to try and force themselves and their beliefs on others, Jesus forced Himself on NO ONE and He is God-Incarnate.Priests and Bishops should be PROCLAIMING THE GOOD NEWS not trying to be cops in enforcing the law especially since some have no idea that the LAW is LOVE considering that God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE.It seems that some have no idea what the GOOD NEWS is and that, I imagine, is why some try to run other people’s lives.Thank You for pointing out that we are to follow our conscience’s, in at least attempting to follow Jesus, and that it is a teaching of the Catholic Church even tho there are some that go against this teaching.Also, Jesus asked us to, “Come follow Me”, He did not ask us to follow His Church or to follow the bible or to follow “whatever” but to “COME FOLLOW ME”, did He not?Just a suggestion, Pray for God’s Plan, It is much, to say the least, better than some think that It is and It is much better than some even want It to be.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • sparrow4

    Bobbymiami- you know, I always thought the idea behind democracy was the great melting pot. I’ve always loved that concept, and grew up living it. My hope and belief is that Obama will reawaken that again because if we don’t stand together, we will surely fall together. we don’t have to lose our beliefs or our individuality, we just have to think first of the greater good. I just find it a tragedy that so many of the religious right use their churches and the bible to divide us. their idea of unity is to make us all the same. but our greatest strength as a country as has always been the fact that we could set aside our differences to all live as Americans. What they don’t understand is that they are nothing without the rest of us. And vice versa.But until you get the racists and the right wing fanatics and the political parties to see that without all of us working together there is no country, well then there is no country.

  • readerny

    I didn’t notice this until I became a parent…why is it only the Protestant churches in my towns have playground while the Catholic churches have none? (I was raised Catholic and until recently attended church). I started looking at Catholic churches in my childhood hometown and elsewhere. It seems true wherever I go. Almost no thought to children’s development. And why is it that a priest told my cousin she had “too many children” when she told him she could not afford the tuition increases at her children’s Catholic school?How about a Church that cares about its members once they’re here on earth?

  • Athena4

    If pro-lifers really gave a rip about saving babies, they’d be looking to lower our infant mortality rate, which is one of the highest for the developed world. Or finding cures for birth defects.Oh, I’m sorry. You people only care about kids in the womb. Once you’re out, you’re on your own.

  • MaryMiserable

    Sparrow, it was revealing to me when on the very same date the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church lobbied Congress to retain the partial-birth abortion procedure, while another Bishop testified before a House Subcommittee to legalize “assisted suicide.” In one remarkable day the Church effectively declared its indifference to the fate of the unborn and the dying.,,a revolutionary change in traditional teaching and how the public perceives Christianity.Because women are often the caregivers but always the mothers, the Church tested the market to see if women would be enticed to become agents of change in their relationships to those to whom they would presumably be closest and if society at large would buy into it. This singular action by the Episcopal Church – which has had such a prestigious role in American history – has been hidden from view by the Church itself and a disinterested media, but I suspect the pro-life Catholic bishops realize what’s at stake.IN terms of the election, Senator Obama’s unyielding defense of Roe vs. Wade and the “new social contract” which he envisions is not good news. If The Washington Post and Newsweek had performed the public service which we should expect, the Senator might have been questioned about his vision on these matters.I feel certain that abortion will remain legal, but if we have a President Obama, a pro-choice majority in Congress , and an indifferent National Cathedral, they all combine to create a new identity for Washington, which may be a hard sell at home and abroad.

  • elviramarie

    How many angels dance on the head of a pin?I am beginning to think that this pro-life, anti-life debate is just as useless as that.Neither side is going to bend. Neither side CAN bend without giving up its sine qua non.Let’s send all the fanatics on both sides to Antartica or Mars or somewhere uninhabited where they can all argue until they die.The rest of us will work to make abortions safe, but a last resort, and make sure every baby lives with someone who would put the child’s life and well-being above his or her own.