President Carter’s Sunday School Lessons

Presidents who desire a “normal” worship experience (if anything a president does can be said to be normal) can find … Continued

Presidents who desire a “normal” worship experience (if anything a president does can be said to be normal) can find a way to have one if they wish. The standard for modern presidents is Jimmy Carter. I was fortunate to attend First Baptist Church in Washington when Carter was president. His regular attendance when he was in town established a type of normalcy that removed what might have been a disruptive experience had he only been an occasional visitor. While a pool of reporters always attended with him (and having reporters in church is a good thing!), they were respectful and did not intrude on the Carters’ worship experience.

It helped that Carter was a regular church-goer before he became president. He also taught Sunday School in Georgia and he continued to do so on occasion as president. I sat in his class and had the privilege of teaching it on one occasion when he and Rosalynn were there. That all of this seemed normal to Carter made the rest of us treat it as such. Carter even stayed to have coffee with fellow members in the church basement. I once “loaned” him a quarter for coffee because he wasn’t carrying any money that particular Sunday.

It is important for a president to be seen worshipping God if it is genuine and not political window dressing. There were stories in the press at the time that Carter’s example encouraged other Americans to go to church and seek God’s will for their lives.

If as president, Barack Obama adopts Carter as his church role model, he, too, will serve as an example to the nation that there is a power higher than a president’s and, as Scripture reminds us, “those who seek Him shall ever surely find Him.”

Cal Thomas
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  • coloradodog

    Cal and his intolerant white evangelical ilk love telling others what they should do – including going to church. But just not any church, only their true church.

  • JoeT1

    1. I couldn’t care less whether he attends church, and he certainly shouldn’t on my account or anyone elses.2. The President has no obligation to be an example of anything with respect to religion, and indeed should avoid any appearance of using the office in any such endeavor.

  • Chagasman

    It is not at all important that a President attend religious services. That is not what we elect him to do. Cal is just pushing his version of “family values”, which seems to be that all people should be as religious as he is, or suffer his condemnation.

  • djmolter

    Does Bushie go to church? If so, how come I never see him? And how come it didn’t stop him from whomping the hell out of Iraq? Oh, I forgot … God told him it’s OK. That kind of church attending I can do without.

  • elife1975

    There is no higher power than the people. We chose logic over fantasy when we chose Obama over McCain. It’s a sad fact that even our most intelligent leaders must feign a belief in “god” to get elected. Oh, and I love when commentators quote the bible in an attempt to reinforce their own logic. It shows how deluded their original remarks really were.

  • jimjoyce1

    Cal Thomas should mind his own business…

  • wizard2

    The media and the religious right all demanded that Obama divorce himself from the local church he attended for 20 years. They were not respectful and intruded on the Obama family’s worship experience.If Barack Obama adopts Carter as his church role model, that’s political window dressing.

  • aspartamerocks

    I agree that it would send a nice message, but he really has to do what’s best for his family. It will be hard for them this holiday season, as it is the first one they’ll go through without their “home” church. Regardless if you agree with some of the comments of his ex-pastor, it must be really hard for them to be spiritually homeless at a time like this. I hope they can find a true home in DC soon. But this should be the one that is best for the spiritual needs of their family with little regard for what’s going to look good to the public.

  • davequ

    I-X-N-A-Y on ANY comparisons to Carter. I have higher aspirations for America in the next 4 years than a repeat of ’76 to ’80, thank you very much!

  • sasquatchbigfoot

    I take it that Cal Thomas would think it anathema to contemplate the prospect of an atheist or agnostic POTUS.

  • DwightCollins

    carter was inept as a President and caused great harm to the country…

  • DwightCollins

    how can obama attend a Christian Church with his agenda on abortion…

  • dkp01

    “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”Obama may not even be that religious, I have no idea, but let’s say that he is. If he is, Cal Thomas is advising him to go against the word of God in order to look good to–well, to whom? The fundamentalists who think he’s a secret Muslim? Carter may well have been more comfortable going to church and praying in public with others. But to advise someone to go to church in order to “keep up appearances” is in clear violation of the word of God. If he wants to worship privately, there’s nothing wrong with that, and if he doesn’t want to worship at all, there’s nothing wrong with that either, to be honest. But going to church just for show is sinful. Let the man do what’s right for him and his family, and let’s not advise him to do anything just for show.

  • jdoyle1

    “It is important for a president to be seen worshipping God…”Important to who? Not to me, and likely not to millions of other Americans. Separation of Church & State seem to be lost among religious leaders – your God has not place in my government. Keep faith in church and reason in office.

  • logan303

    Jimmy Carter is a humanitarian for whom one should aspire to emulate. Not so much as a President. If the president elect sought my advice, I would urge him to worship or pray with his family in the privacy of their home, but attend services at a variety of different churches, temples, and mosques.

  • gaijinsamurai

    Seriously, who gave Cal Thomas a column? I get why he’s on this forum, his posts always make for great flamebait, but who would want to read his 8th grade english and inane thoughts on a weekly basis?

  • datdamwuf2

    save us from this stupidity. I wish the man were an atheist but it will be a dam long time before the US would elect someone with no faith in a GOD. Or maybe we did? that would be so cool!

  • paris1969

    I think it would be best if the Obamas took turns visiting all the churches in the Washington D.C. area, that way they won’t show favoritism and also it would give them a broader perspective on religion and spiritual culture in America. And, I hope that don’t just attend traditional churches.

  • cabfineart

    I find it all so interesting that people are comfortable telling others what they “should” do. Obama will do what is best for him and his family. Guess what – he is grown.

  • hz9604

    Should he go to church for one of those photo ops walking out of the church with his Bible like Bill Clinton? You don’t need to go to church. That’s ridiculous.

  • bobmul1

    Mr. Thomas,There is a higher power than a president’s: it is called “the people”. I suppose if Mr. Carter, his predecessors and successors want to pray it is their decision, but a complete absence from church by Mr. Obama would not upset me; indeed, I would be heartened by such rational behavior.

  • stantheman1

    I have to disagree with the posts arguing that the POTUS’s religion is personal, it is irrelevant what his views are, etc. Surely there are many possible religious views that could profoundly affect the rest of us: if a president believes that the end of the world is nigh, for example, or that abortion is a mortal sin, or that god wants us to invade somebody. Or even just that there is a god out there that is running things and that therefore it doesn’t matter what action we take … If someone is truly religious how can it not affect every decision they make?Ideally he would just come out and say Ok, now that I have been elected I can drop the religious crap and just be the secular rationalist I really am and that the nation sorely needs me to be. Short of that, attending a different church each week is not a bad idea.

  • AncientTerp

    This old agnostic is happy to have Cal’s views. I hope the Obamas do what is best for them and hang public opinion. If they attend church regularly so much the better. Most of the responses to Cal’s column seem much too strong and far too intolerant. As for Jimmy Carter, he may have been less effective than he could have been, but his religious practices were entirely positive and probably strengthened the man and the country. He never advocated the public adopt his brand nor did he advertise his faith.

  • jgarrisn

    no No NO NOOOO!Keep religion OUT of politics.You want a theocracy? Move to Iran!

  • jmanarnhart

    Jimmy Carter was one of the worst Presidents in the history of this Republic. Who in God’s name cares what Carter would do?

  • hrndnwmn1

    It’s unAmerican to hold a president (or any person for that matter) to religious worship as a standard. How would you feel if he started attending a mosque regularly? His higher power would not be YOUR higher power. OMG!!!!!Freedom of religion means my freedom from your religion. Patriotic agnostic here.

  • the1joncook

    This article is absurd. But what else could you expect from Mr. Thomas.

  • Bruce9

    It would be good if columnists attended church and were not seen to be doing so for inappropriate reasons.

  • jrw1

    This is just so much BS. Why should any intelligent, thinking adult have to worship anyone or anything on Sunday just to show the country he can be a regular shumck just like them? Cal Thomas is a truly offensive idiot.

  • EarlC

    I am truly impressed with this column by Cal Thomas. He writes so little that I agree with. He did write a column recently that appeared in our local paper entitled “R.I.P for the Religious Right.” This has to be one of his finest columns. To be honest, I am surprised that Cal Thomas attended the First Baptist Church in Washington, DC. I guess that my impression on visitng the church back in March 1977 was that the church was moderate in its views, something that Cal seems to be unfamiliar with.Reagan and the two Bushes seemed to avoid attending regular church services. In fact, I am not sure that Reagan attended any church services regularly, whether as President or not. “W” certainly has not led by example, yet the religious right is still in his camp. I pray that Obama can bring the much-needed political healing to our land. It is only when we actually turn to God in earnest that a deeper healing is possible.Another matter: Cal Thomas wrote about the victory in Iraq today. What a joke. I ask, what victory? Who is seen wavingthe white flag of surrender. Al Qaida is certainly not defeated. The War on Terror lurches onward. I guess with a bankrupt America and almost a quarter of the Iraqi population either dead, wounded, or in exile, a win is a win according to people like Cal Thomas. I see a people who are trying to move forward despite the tragedy that we inflicted on them, a tragedy much worse than they experienced under Sadaam. The Christian exodus from Iraq speaks volumes about the new Iraq being democratized.

  • EarlC

    Jimmy Carter was a fine President. It has taken someone like “W” to prove my point. Many of the economic circumstances that Carter faced were faced squarely with a budget that still remained fairly balanced by our standards today. The hostages did come home – not one was killed, beheaded, or burned to a mass of ashes. Carter haters and Clinton haters have one thing in common, they are political hacks with no moral compass.

  • SoldiersMom

    It is so nice to hear a conservative admiring the accomplishmrnts of Jimmy Carter, who was one of America’s best presidents. And, as true conservatives know, the founding fathers so respected religious freedom that they wrote into the Constitution that there shall be no religious test as a qualification to hold office.

  • chiefnugt

    Christians don’t have a monopoly on morality. If anything, the past 8 year suggest the louder a leader proclaims his religous viewpoint, the LESS able, principled and wise that leader will be. I personally hope President-Elect Obama avoids goins to church for his entire term in office. Firstly, he needs to be thinking about how to undo the damage inflicted on the country by that great Christian icon, George W. Bush. Secondly, we don’t have a religious litmus test in this country.

  • hfisher1

    “It helped that Carter was a regular church-goer before he became president.” Helped to do what, exactly? Make him a miserable president? I krap and phart on the religious and their so-called gods. I pray only to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, his Only Son Meatball, and the Sauce in which He lives.

  • tboyer33

    This country has been through a painful and destructive period at the hands of religious extremists like Cal Thomas, and there is a lot of repair work to attend to.It will be a great relief if President Obama restores a respect for the First Amendment (as well as several other amendments) to this White House. Where Mr. Obama and his family choose to worship is a private matter that properly belongs in the background, not the foreground.

  • spidermean2

    Cal Thomas wrote “If as president, Barack Obama adopts Carter as his church role model, he, too, will serve as an example to the nation that there is a power higher than a president’s”Yup, go to church and legalize abortion. Does it sound hypocritical? At least the atheists are more honest in their conviction.This is one good example how atheists are holier than “believers”. Now you know why atheists and some “religious” folks combine to form or support a party. STUPIDITY is the common denominator.

  • tboyer33

    I also can’t help but laugh to see Cal Thomas hold up Jimmy Carter as an example for Obama. Cal Thomas and the Christian Right have had nothing but hate for Jimmy Carter and every good thing Carter stands for — peace, compassion, tolerance, dialogue. These things are the very opposite of the aggressive and devisive Christian Fundamentalism that Thomas has advocated for his entire career.

  • con_crusher

    Carter was an awful president, but a decent human being. I can’t imagine Republicans like Reagan or Bush Jr./Sr. working for Habitat for Humanity after leaving the White House, or contributing towards world peace. Many evangelicals seem to be coming around – they realize now that you can be Christian/religious, and not hate everyone who isn’t 100% like you. Most Republican fundies have thrown 99% of Jesus’s teachings out the window, to take up hard-right stances on social issues. They are all-too-eager to cast the first stone.

  • jwtusjp

    Religion is waning now in the U.S. The claims that 25 percent of Americans are evangelicals turned out to be closer to 7 percent, and that number may be high. (Seven percent is the figure provided by Barna Research and is further supported by research provided by the churches by other investigators.)It should be no surprise that the so-called “values” agenda has actually been attributed to this decline. The younger generation (18 to 29 age group) is put off by the rigid and militant strain of certain “Christian” religionists. The anti-intellectual, anti-science religionists are proving to be quite offensive to the more rational majority of Americans. It has been said that the intrusion of church into state will result in a European-like non-religious society, and it appears this is playing out.Religion is a personal matter; protection from offensive and intrusive religious practices are shameful.

  • reder01

    Pious Cal wants Obama to go to church to acknowledge a “higher power.” Hey Cal, didn’t anyone tell you there really is no superman in the sky? Look around, Cal, and see how foolish you are with your childish faith. Grow up for once.

  • gabraeal


  • con_crusher

    response to: (jwtusjp November 26, 2008 5:59 PM)Agreed. I’ve seen firsthand what happens when a country has virtually no separation of church and state. One obvious problem is that it ties the hands of the government–it simply cannot take major action until it has the blessings of the church. Secondly, the church is able to force its will on the government, particularly regarding social issues. I’m not anti-religious, but I’m very skeptical of organized religion. Check out the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the hypocrisy if the religious right in America. As you mentioned, religion should be a private matter. If people come to my house trying to pass out Watchtower magazines or whatever–they can take it elsewhere. Jimmy Carter was a decent human being who happened to be a church-goer. Does that make it mandatory for Obama to be a churchgoer while in the White House? No, that’s a personal matter. In fact, after George W. Bush’s rightwing radical approch to social issues, it would be refreshing to see a president who isn’t determined to enforce his own beliefs regarding abortion, stem cell research, etc.–on the the rest of the country. Separation of church and state is where it’s at.

  • RealCalGal

    “It is important for a president to be seen worshipping God if it is genuine and not political window dressing.”No it is not.It IS important for the religious beliefs of a President to be immaterial.I encourage all people of good will to see Bill Maher’s movie Religulous. It is time for those of us who are NOT religious to move into the public square and to have OUR voices heard, just like the voices of people who believe in a guy who was dead for three DAYS (not minutes) and then supposedly came back to life again.It is important that rationality and not myth be demonstrated by our political leaders.

  • sasquatchbigfoot

    Note the sanctimonious smirk on Cal Thomas’ face in his picture. The only thing it lacks is a thought balloon saying, “My God is red hot! Your god ain’t doodley squat!”

  • Farnaz2

    Yeah, but Jimmy Carter lusted in his heart.

  • stantheman1

    Spidey is making even less sense than usual, I see.

  • GCHeels

    All that praying in the White House the last eight years has done a lot of good, huh. Had Bush spent more time learning how the world works instead of going to church to hear fairy tales we wouldn’t be where we’re at today.

  • orthodoxheathen

    Obama should frequently ask himself Cal’s question, “What Would Jimmy Do?”, and then do the opposite. Carter was the most ineffective president in decades, and might have been remembered for some of the worst failures of leadership in modern presidential history if Bush II hadn’t come along to make him look much better. Their public displays of piety obviously didn’t help either of them govern, and didn’t do anything constructive for our nation. I’d rather see my leader seek practical solutions to the country’s problems than bow his head and pray things will improve.

  • jaltcohblogspotcom

    Bush doesn’t go to church. Why the double standard?

  • pdeblin

    I don’t care if a President attends church, believes in God or believes in silver monkeys. All I care is that he or she exhibits the type of moral and ethical beliefs and conduct that treat people decently and understand that out planet is an intricate and fragile web of existence.So what that George W. Bush attends church and then orders the torture of human beings. So what that Dick Cheney goes to church and then leaves us with a legacy of falsehoods.Cal Thomas has been exposed as a hypocrite–his views of moral/ethical thought are narrow.

  • robertell

    But, alas, there is no God. Only the scared need a myth deity.

  • robertell

    I prefer the reality based community myself. Man’s ‘god’ construct is the icon of all mankind’s failures, a tribute to fear, and no more. Religion is the bane of humanity. Simple as that.

  • spidermean2

    “Alas, there is no God”, until the missiles coming from nowhere starts raining down to unbelievers as prophesied in the Bible.

  • orthodoxheathen

    “‘Alas, there is no God’, until the missiles coming from nowhere starts raining down to unbelievers as prophesied in the Bible.”WHAT? God has MISSILES?? Time to launch a preemptive strike on that dude.

  • Jeff_from_MD

    So why did it take 8 years for this article to be written then? President Bush attended church the first few weeks after being sworn in, but has only attended twice a year since while “preaching” on his sleeve the most.

  • sparrow4

    I hate to break this to you spidermean, but missiles, unlike you, don’t discriminate. They’ll be raining down on believers and unbelievers alike.

  • spidermean2

    Here’s for the idiots who think that Lincoln is godless. The following are his words:”The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God’s purpose is something different from the purpose of either party—and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect his purpose. I am almost ready to say this is probably true—that God wills this contest, and wills that it shall not end yet. By his mere quiet power, on the minds of the now contestants, He could have either saved or destroyed the Union without a human contest. Yet the contest began. And having begun He could give the final victory to either side any day. Yet the contest proceeds.[71]”

  • spidermean2

    sorry, wrong page. that should have been posted at jacoby’s page.

  • Samson151

    So you’re not in favor of this newfangled separation of church and state notion, huh Cal?Personally, I sort of hope he doesn’t make a public show of churchgoing. We’ve had a little too much of that during the past eight years. Safe to say Obama can demonstrate leadership while attending private services in the White House. That’d be just fine with me. Last time I looked, I had as many votes as you do.

  • Dave222

    Why on earth is it “important for a president to be seen worshipping God”? The President is the executive head of state, not the Pope. Who cares what his religious views are?

  • analyst72

    You, as an a adviser to a right-wing looser, and as supporter of the most incompetent and useless president my country has ever had, should keep your trap tightly closed and locked.

  • spidermean2

    Sparrow wrote “I hate to break this to you spidermean, but missiles, unlike you, don’t discriminate. They’ll be raining down on believers and unbelievers alike.”True, if believers chose to live in very liberal places like San Francisco or Hollywood, or NY City.


    obama’s bail on church is just the initial emergence of the true obama, as opposed to the guy the left-wing press sold to the country. he will not get us out of iraq, he will not get universal healthcare, he will not tax the rich to give to the poor. He doesn’t have to deliver on any of his campaign promises or maintain the image that got him elected. he knows the looney left will love him NO MATTER WHAT he does. But, with a little luck, obama will be exactly like president who hired most of obama appointees the first time: clinton. mmmmmmm….has anyone alerted monica lewinski there is a new self-centered liberal drone with a freakishly hideous wife coming to the white house?

  • DiversEquality2008

    Oh my goodness,I’m from Europe, and am wondering since when a president or chief of government “should” attend church???In the 21st century, a truly free and democratic society SHOULD finally get rid of religious propaganda and brainwashing in public life and, especially, in the political arena. Live your “religion” or your faith freely, but please refrain from imposing it on others that don’t want to see it nor hear about it.After the last eight years of an extremist right-wing and “Christian” government, the United States SHOULD finally enforce the separation of church and state, of religion and politics.Europe seems to be a bit more advanced in this area – maybe that’s why we don’t take condoms away from millions of poor people in Africa who have a fundamental right to sexual self-determination AS WELL AS protection against AIDS/HIV. Or why most European countries don’t deny people equal rights because of their sexual orientation…

  • willemkraal

    You, as an a adviser to a right-wing looser, and as supporter of the most incompetent and useless president my country has ever had, should keep your trap tightly closed and locked.well said! analyst 72also pleeze mother maria take a look at that homophobic looking rug you wear on your head it should be replaced at once!ok darling and if you take care of all of the above please join us when we have the next anti mormon temple protest in los angeles to stop the hate!! stop the can find more details at:JOINTHEIMPACT.COM

  • Tim_G

    Whether Obama chooses to attend church regularly or not is his own business and is not a public concern. I would rather he focus his attention on important matters here on this planet, rather than fairy tales.

  • spidermean2

    DiversEquality2008, I think, quite a number of terrorists who participated in the 911 attack came from Europe. Please spare us your idiotic comment. Also Europe supplied most of the weapons Saddam have during his tyranical reign. Fix your place before fixing ours.

  • cms1

    So, why go to church at all? Why not follow W’s example of having prayer groups all over the White House to guide him into WAR and theft?

  • rbaldwin2

    Mr. Thomas…DAVE222 above has it completely right..Why on earth is it “important for a president to be seen worshiping God”? Is it important to YOU? It’s not important to me. Or other people I know…It’s clear that this must be the only thing you can hang on to…are you afraid? Don’t get enough hate input from Fox news or the Evangelical propaganda machine?You and your kind should just slink back under the rock you live under and leave us alone.

  • dah_sab

    You’re forgetting one crucial fact, Cal: There is no god. So no point in going to church, for Obama or anyone else. Join us in the Age of Enlightenment, won’t you?

  • penman

    I suggest that the Obamas use Sundays for taking in the sites, then for ordering in Chinese food or pizza.

  • pdxer

    With all the problems facing America and the world, this is a concern? That Obama does his part to further entwine church and state in this country?I hope we’ve finally moved on from the religious zealotry of the last 30 years and get back to the secular nation our enlightened founders intended.

  • bedollo

    a) We elect a President, not a Pope. We should care less whether or not he attends religious service.b) Cal Thomas is on record in this forum as believing that torture is sometimes necessary and justified. As a result, his opinions have miniscule weight, in my mind.

  • herzliebster

    Please give the man a rest. What he is saying is that GIVEN THAT OBAMA HAS PUBLICLY PROFESSED AN ACTIVE CHRISTIAN FAITH, it would be (in the writer’s opinion) better for him to affiliate with a congregation, as did Carter and the Clintons, than to hold private prayer services in the White House in the manner of Nixon and Reagan. Private worship with private chaplains always runs the risk of simply indulging the powerful individual(s) on whose turf the private worship is held. Belonging to a congregation provides more chance of the powerful person getting some kind of message from outside of their bubble.This article does not raise the entirely different question of whether faith itself is a good thing or not. President-elect Obama has said many times that he is a professing Christian, so this is advice from one Christian to another in that context. Flogging the author for voicing an opinion to his fellow-Christian on terms that they both share, is pointless and silly.

  • spidermean2

    For the idiots out there, your so called “Enlightenment” produced many wars and 2 world wars including the creation of communism and the poison it planted around the world which upto now is a hotbed for more troubles.Doomsday will ultimately shut your “stupid light” out permanently.

  • Ombudsman1

    Fine man. Lousy president.Seriously, not a great example of “what to do” as president.

  • johng1

    Is it just me or is Al looking like the Grinch who stole X-mas? God oh god od go dog god.

  • fake1

    “The standard for modern presidents is Jimmy Carter.”What? That might be the first time that’s been uttered. Jacoby’s entry makes far, far more sense.

  • PJTramdack

    Whether President Obama worships one god, twenty gods, or no god at all is nobody’s business but his own. We have had enough of the “pious” gangsters who make a big show of going to church on Sunday, then authorize torture on Monday, and senseless war on Tuesday. If George Bush is an example of what “Christian” is all about, we will be better off if we never have another one like him in a position of responsibility. I honestly don’t think Barack has enough hate in him to qualify as a “Christian.”

  • johng1

    I think Sister Mary Elephant spanked Spidey too many times on his head.

  • johng1

    Cal also looks like the lighter shade of pale, like he saw the holy ghost!

  • johng1

    and the only way to extinguish the holy ghost is the holy hand grenade!

  • johng1

    bless me father for I have sinned. It’s been 38 years since my last confession. I have a list containing my sins that I’ve been typing up for a few weeks now. get back to me ASAP and let me know when I’m clean again!!!!

  • stantheman1

    Mystic mouse – your comments about Michelle Obama and Hillary are inaccurate and disgusting. You should be ashamed.

  • spidermean2

    johng1 wrote “It’s been 38 years since my last confession.”I told you Catholicism is a FALSE religion. Look what happened to yourself and to Susan Jacoby and to PaganPlace and to CCNL and the rest of the atheist gang here.

  • ethanquern

    If experience is ANY guide, please, please, please President-elect Obama STAY OUT of church!!!If Carter, Nixon, and Bush 43 are any example of the faithful, the LAST THING in the world we need is another of these sanctimonious fools.

  • steve38

    Articles like these are silly. To suggest that a President–that anyone–should go to church because going to church would be a good thing for that person, or for the country, is just empty-headed and silly. Going to church, in and of itself, is a meaningless activity. LIVING the spiritual teachings to which one may get exposed in church is a different matter entirely.

  • pipkin42

    I don’t generally agree with Thomas, and I generally find American obsession with Christianity tiresome. However, this is a thoughtful and, I think, very correct piece. Obama obviously takes his faith seriously, as did Carter. It would only be right for him to continue to do so by truly joining a church. That is, after all, what it’s all about, right? If you believe, make it an everyday part of your life. That’s not to say that church attendance has to be a part of belief. But it seems to be for Obama, and he should continue to have it be a part of his and his family’s life.

  • spidermean2

    steve38, it all depends on what church you’re attending. There are true and there are false information and there are idiots who don’t know the difference.

  • peck3

    I agree with Dave 222 (11/26, 7:35 AM). Who cares what the president’s religious affiliation (if any, or not) is? Cal, I wonder what you would have said in 1960 when a Catholic, John Kennedy, was elected president. I am not a Catholic but my point is this: to Protestant evangelicals like yourself, THEIR church is preferable to any other church, and Catholicism was most certainly not preferable.

  • jabalong

    Here’s a thought…how about preserving the separation of Church and State, which is one of the key principles of Western democracies. As such, as President Obama can worship as much as he wants, but here’s to him doing it in a private rather than official capacity. And as such, it shouldn’t be anyone’s business but his.

  • wilkestraphill

    I have fond that God is present at home, under the Beech Tree, in the house.That is, every where I am, His presence is with me guiding me along and giving me the strenghth to do what Jesus taught all of us to do.Mortar and brick does not a faith make is my experience.

  • wilkestraphill

    I have found that God is where I am: home, under the Beech tree or gazing in woder at the sky.He guides me and gives me the strength to try to emulate the life Jesus demonstrated we should live: justice for all, compassion, love, acceptance of differences, that all are my brothers and sisters.Bricks and mortar does not a faith make has been my experience.

  • msgrinnell

    If I want a spiritual example I’ll go looking for one in a church, mosque, synagogue, or with a friend, perhaps. I don’t want nor need my president to be a spiritual example for me.

  • pgbsan

    Why should he go to church? So that he can pretend that his worldly actions have some sort of blessing from God, like the shameful atrocity we currently have inhabiting the Oval Office?Yeah, that’s exactly what we need: another president’s actions wrapped in a garb of holy righteousness.I would rather have him spending those two hours every Sunday doing productive things, like clearing his head in a game of basketball.

  • mortified469

    People do not have to go to organized religious services in order to have a connection to God. There are enough hypocrites out there that go to church on Sunday morning then begin breaking commandments as soon as the hit the road.

  • wilkestraphill

    Let me see! Doesn’t the Bible say something about JUDGING others?The faith tradition of the president and his family, if any, should be personal and private not an event for the media and talk shows.A chapel in the White House would be ideal: invite clerics from other mainline tratitions in each Sunday…might sing, do liturgical dances, fellowship in private…no media to spin the event.

  • qqbDEyZW

    All this talk about Religion and what President Elect Obama should do or what church should he attend. I’ve watch for 7 years George W. Bush use God’s name but do Satan’s work. Barbara Bush got sick her husband dropped her off at the hospital while she was in pain and she had to walk in by herself. Only Laura called to check on her. No children or grandchildren bothered as his woman had surgery. President Bush spend time pardoning a Turkey but could have flew out to check on his Mother. It was announced that Barbara will spend Thanksgiving visiting Family.

  • vance1

    1 Yes Obama professed his religious stance. SO WHAT? Every politician has to do so just to get elected. OLD NEWS2. Separation of Church and state. PERIOD3. I don’t care if president Elect Obama ever steps foot in a church. What I care about is how he serves WE THE PEOPLE. Last time I checked not all of America were Christians.4. See number 25. See number 4

  • michael_sanchez

    Are you some kind of complete idiot. You are exactly the type knucklehead that supports the form over substance of George W Bush. Go to church, claim to be God fearing and then live your life in a completely contradictory manner. Jimmy Carter was a failure as a president by every measure. He neither defended the country nor supported it. He is a horrible example of a US citizen, only out done by George W Bush, who has tarnished this country immeasurably. The one thing they have in common is the blind refuge they both hide in called religious belief. They are closed minded and incapable of comprehending the world around them beyond the black and white rules the church comforts them in. Ignorance truly is bliss I guess. Shame on you for using church as a political vehicle.

  • stantheman1

    Spidey – tell us how to tell the difference between true and false information (singular, by the way).

  • mtnmanvt

    Mr. Thomas your article contributes to the breakdown of the separation between church and state. A president’s religion is none of anyone’s business. It should play no part in his or her policy making, nor should any president be involved in promoting religion. Of course a person’s spirituality can be part of what guides their path, and thus a president can also be guided by their faith, but this unofficial litmus test that all presidents must swear fealty to the god of abraham is onerous, discriminatory, and ultimately a betrayal of the american people. If Barack Obama goes to church that is his business. I don’t need to know about it any more than anyone needs to know about my spiritual practices.Let’s keep religion out of politics please, like the constitution says!

  • mtnmanvt

    SPIDERMEAN2 wrote:

  • spidermean2

    stantheman1, you forgot to mention the more important one — that idiots won’t see the difference between true and false information. It’s useless for me to list the true and false information if the one listening could not see the difference.

  • mtnmanvt

    LOGAN303 wrote :

  • spidermean2

    mtnmanvt “What happened to them Spidey?”They were former Catholics who instead of seeing the light became hardcore atheists or pagans and have became enemies of Christ. Amazing how Catholicism produces lots of atheists. Waht did those holy water, holy biscuits, holy rosaries, holy priests, holy dogmas done to them? Holy indulgence… holy cow.

  • spidermean2

    “attend services at a variety of different churches, temples, and mosques.”Just like any fool would do. No direction and scattered brain.

  • penman

    Whether he goes to church or doesn’t, the church he does or doesn’t decide to go to is his business and the business of his family. Butt out, OnFaith.

  • harveyh5

    Cal,You state, “If as president, Barack Obama adopts Carter as his church role model, he, too, will serve as an example to the nation that there is a power higher than a president’s.” Carefully stated and rather well said, in that you avoided identifying God as the higher power. Let’s see, nature can be a higher power. Afterall, nothing the President can do can stop a tornado or earthquake. The combined efforts of other heads of state can be a higher power. The will of the people also can be a higher power. If you meant to imply more, you’ll have to go beyond Scripture to prove that God thing.

  • faithfulservant3

    Even though it’s rare I love it when I agree with Cal Thomas–there’s so much more that unites us than divides us.

  • ScottChallenger

    Cal,Your opinion is the underlying problem of the conservative agenda. Your group believes a person can not be whole without worship to some God. Not Zeus or Apoolo, but the “Christan” type.What the fire and brimstone crowd needs to get their closed minds around is RELIGION is a personal matter, not something to trumpet around like bling on a rapper.If Obama never stepped foot in church the next four years, so what? It would not change my opinion about him one bit. In fact, I’d likely respect him even more.

  • coloradodog

    Spidermean2/Spiderman2 aka Canyon Shearer read Matthew 5:22 before you call people fools.

  • spidermean2

    “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God” (Psalms 53:1)Im not sure how it is a sin to call atheists as idiots when the Bible says that they are fools.If I call people stupid WITHOUT any reason, then maybe that is where the passage in Matthew applies. For how else can a person know that he is stupid except you tell him that? How else do you jolt somebody’s head to awaken him from his stupid trance and prevent him from running towards the fire except you bang it in his face that he is such a fool.

  • CCNL

    On this Thanksgiving, give thanks that there is only one Spidermean2/Spiderman2 aka Canyon Shearer, Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Bigoted and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion.

  • spidermean2

    DavidinDallas “The structures of our nation and the world are crumbling around us.”The day is fast approaching. Doomsday is coming. And people like DavidinDallas continue to banner their stupidity. These are the kind of people who are pulling doomsday to come sooner.Much sooner than they thought.

  • asoders22

    I like Jimmy Carter, but there’s nothing particularly good about a president going to church, hence favoring one faith – or faith at all – before all others. So I can’t agree on the “it’s important for a president to be seen worshipping God” or that he needs to “serve as an example to the nation that there is a power higher than a president’s”. On the contrary – it could be important for a president to keep his special brand of superstition to himself, or actually not believe in God at all.

  • spidermean2

    asoders22 wrote “or actually not believe in God at all.”And just assume that his brain sprouted out of nowhere and declare that it just existed just like majic. It’s either you believe in a Higher Intelligence or you believe in magic.Atheists are magicians. Dumb magicains coz their skill is based on lies. Ask them to do magic and just like any dumb person, what you get is a blank stare.

  • s_j_thaikattil

    Dear Mr ThomasHappy Thanksgiving Day!Soja John Thaikattil

  • TomfromNJ1

    I agree that if I want freedom of religion, I must grant the same to Obama. This is his choice. BUT what I do see here is Cal Thomas’ hypocrisy. As I recall, when they were presidents he had little good to say about the church-going Carter and a lot of nice things to say about the non-churchgoer Reagan. It seems Mr. Thomas lets religion influence him when it serves other ends. To me that is not sincere religion.

  • DavidinDallas

    The structures of our nation and the world are crumbling around us. I hope that Obama realizes that he has more important things to do than to waste his/our time in the fantasyland of church.

  • bartedson

    The thesis of this article–that the most intelligent and capable man to ascend to the presidency in a generation ought to go out and act like a religious nutball just to soothe other religious nutballs feelings–is rediculous.Grow up already.

  • justillthen

    Hello Counterww: I send in two parts, as it did not post immediately. Tbarksdl may just be using the Thomas essay as further fuel for his apparent deep distaste for “born again Christians”. It sounds like his distaste spreads beyond the realm of born agains alone and into the realm where religious dogma and conditioning blinds the adherent to reason unconstrained by theology. I don’t blame him. He goes a bit over the top with quotes like: “not just spew forth their mindless platitudes that have meaning only in some la-la never-never land” and “Born again Christians are too dumb to be president.” They do not, because they prefer arrogant exclusivity, (we are more special), than grateful humility, (we are thankful to be part of creation). I generalize here. I know many born agains that have humility and also have allowance how God may speak differently to others.

  • justillthen

    Part Two:You brought up this quote from Washington’s farewell address again. I like it. I do not know if Washington wrote it himself. This was well before the time one thinks of presidents as having speech writers. If he did the writing it gives a wonderful window into his mind.This is not to negate Washington’s quote. I think it is beautifully written and a fascinating contemplation. And essentially true. But the last sentence suggests that he may be calling to those of like mind to hold to an agreement about specifics of religion and morality. This is the stuff of the time, variations on religious belief and practice of same in the foundation years of the Republic. Some of those differences were tearing at the Republic and threatened its’ continuation for some time. He says:”Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric? “Here he is speaking of a friend to “virtue and morality”, not specifically to religion. Yet he has used religion and morality, and now virtue, nearly interchangeably. Used referring to religion, “sincere friend” is ‘true believer’. One that follows the ‘true’ faith.We have the same conflicts today.

  • justillthen

    Part Three I should have assumed three is the number.’Fundamentalists’ that we have today did not exist then. But other vocal sects did. The only real point that Cal Thomas seems to make is that a President should make his worship public so as to be a role model, and suggests that Obama use Jimmy Carter as that prototype. It is doubtless that the actions of the President are newsworthy, and make an affect. It is also doubtless that religion is divisive. Take a look at these forums.I am comfortable with Obamas wisdom and judgement, and that those are tempered by God, or whatever one may call Greater than I. He does not need to display it by kneeling in a church to make it true for him. Yet, there are those that would judge him as errant if he does otherwise. Perhaps those, like Washington, that are wanting to see if he is “a sincere friend”, so they can trust.

  • dcwca

    Most here, it seems, disregard God and scripture…but IMHO, John sure hit it on the nail head when inspired to write the words of Rev 12:9. These threads are a testament to confusion, which is a byproduct of deceit.Stay tuned folks…we shall see relatively soon why he was inspired to write that.

  • spidermean2

    justillthen wrote “They would do even better if they got a little humble in the face of the Unknowable and recognized that noone knows the Plan of the Creator. “The Bible is A comprehensible book to those with honest intentions and humble hearts. The reason why SO many people don’t understand it is because of their PRIDE.The plan of the creator is this. 1. “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God”.2. For the wages of sin is death (hell), but the gift of God is eternal life.We don’t want this nation to burn but despite our efforts to prevent it, it still will burn coz the stupidity has reached a point of irreversibilty.

  • Counterww

    I judge people by their actions. Obama strikes me as intelligent and also thoughful and he does have faith in God. Clinton did something that was just plain stupid- his action of adultery showed me he not only did not care about his marriage, but what about the distraction of the cover up and all the crap he went through that perhaps took his eye off of Al Qaida.Bush was just plain awful and there is nothing else to say about that.My other comment is that if you seriously read the scriptures, The New Testament does not leave room for multiple paths to God. This does not mean that those that may believe that should not be loving and humble about their relations with other. But it does not mean we don’t have the right, but have the duty, to influence society through our votes, lobbying etc.This other dude called us religious wing nuts. He has probably never bothered to discourse with anyone to get a real honest assessment of who Christians are … just plain emotional bigotry as I see it.

  • justillthen

    And so spidermean, unable to look in the mirror and see that it is he that looks back, assumes that the mirror has nothing to do with him, and he has no need to live by it’s reflection…Instead he says no. He does know the Plan of the Creator, because he read a Book.My lord, what a simple god that must be if those stories encompass the fullness of the Plan.I do not vie for the path of your heart and soul, or anyones. It is not my realm to insinuate myself into the choices that others make spiritually or otherwise, outside of causing innocents harm. You do insinuate yourself there, make it your business what is not, and cause harm by vile judgement, and then I am sure blame Jesus for it, believing that He gave you the responsibility to witness God to the degree of attack. This is spiritual arrogance:”We don’t want this nation to burn but despite our efforts to prevent it, it still will burn coz the stupidity has reached a point of irreversibilty.”Stop your insane efforts. It will be better without the “efforts” that you pursue. Particularly as you pursue. Humility is not what you do here, spidermean. I can only pray that you may find some humility and peace in the safety of your private life. I do not see it here.

  • tbarksdl

    The religious wing nuts prove once more that they have no brains and no shame. We have been led for eight years by one of those “born again” Christians so beloved of the likes of Cal Thomas. The result has been an unmitigated disaster–like so many of us predicted, only worse. The ideas that some smug, brainless idiot is fit to lead this nation because he’s been born again has been blown into a thousand pieces. What is Cal Thomas’ conclusion? The next president should become as much like our current born again village idiot as possible! The only question posed by Thomas’ rantings is: Why is this person given space on a forum supposedly dedicated to intelligent discussion about current events? Surely even religious commentators should be required to adhere to some minimum standards of rational discourse–not just spew forth their mindless platitudes that have meaning only in some la-la never-never land. E.g., I presume even a religious commentator on these pages would not be allowed to base his column on the statement that the earth is the center of the universe. Where is there any more substance in the drivel spewed forth by Cal Thomas? Born again Christians are too dumb to be president. That is now a proven fact. It’s past time to put Thomas on the dust bin of history, along with the earth-centered universe, cold fusion, and George Bush’s economic philosophy.

  • spidermean2

    tbarksdl, maybe you’re the one who’s idiotic by blaming evangelical Christians to this world economic mess.Why don’t you ask who invented these rules in Wall Street first, wherein GREED is their god, before barking on the wrong tree.Are Paulson and Bernanke, who are in charge of this country’s money matters, born again?Who were the people hoarding oil a few months ago to profit despite the fact that it’s unconscionable? (That hoarding contributed to this downward economic spiral)Real born again Christians don’t do such things, idiot.

  • coloradodog

    spidermean2 rants:Real born again Christians don’t do such things, idiot.They just call other people idiots, fools and stupid. By their fruits we shall know them.

  • CCNL

    On this day after Thanksgiving, give thanks that there is only one Spidermean2/Spiderman2 aka Canyon Shearer, Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Bigoted and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion.

  • spidermean2

    The only way not to be called idiot is to stop thinking like an idiot. Idiot is not a bad word if it is used to describe stupidity.I think the word “fool/s” is mentioned 193 times in the bible.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    SpidermanSome people are fools; some people are stupid; some people are idiots; others are just dopes.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    I was reading the Bible the other day, and I came upon this passage that I had never noticed before. It said, “Spiderman is stupid.” And I thought, “wow…if the Bible says it, it must be true.”

  • EnemyOfTheState

    Surprisingly non-partisan article from Mr. Thomas; even more surprising that he cites President Carter for his example.Am I in an alternate universe?

  • justillthen

    EnemyOfTheState:Maybe not so surprising. President Carter was one of the most truly spiritually focused Presidents we have had in a long time. Many in the evangelical community did not like him for his politics. Southern democrat and they went strong defense, death penalty, neo-con republican. Carter never liked the idea of using military force and prefered the idea of passivity and love as tools for advancement. It was a harder world out there than what he may have hoped, and an ugly time and chain of events during his tenure in the White House.Maybe Thomas is looking for a brighter light to use as a beacon. Clearly, as he suggests that Obama should use Carter as a “role model”.

  • Pamsm

    Spidey says:I don’t suppose it’s occurred to you to notice that fundies also become atheists – usually after accidentally picking up something other than their bibles to read.Don’t believe me? Read “Godless” by Dan Barker (highly recommended) or pretty much anything by Bart Ehrman.

  • frederic2

    Spidey,Google: “Fifteen of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.”Do you know where Europe is?God didn’t allow himself to be hanged… Funny notion of a god committing a perfunctory suicide.Once you throw all reason overboard, there is no limit of what you might hold possible. They call it faith, since it is impossible.I am no enemy of god. For me to be an enemy, some hostile entity has to exist in the first place.And thanks for calling everybody an idiot who has retained some reasonable thinking, as opposed to your limited abilities. And thanks for pitying us: My little grandson pities me also because there is no way for me to be made happy by Santa Claus.

  • spidermean2

    Pamsm, being born again means Jesus Christ manifested Himself to the person. It’s impossible for a person to claim to have been born again and later become an atheist. It cannot happen otherwise it’s a fake conversion.

  • justillthen

    spidermean2:I understand the Bible, to the degree that I do, spidermean. Raised with it and by it. Who understands it?Stay out of the way of any individuals relationship with God, or you risk dangerous spiritual penalty. I am serious with this. Do not step between the Father and His Child…. You can, and I am sure do, “wait for the missles”. I am sorry. Please find something more positive and benevolent to focus upon, spidermean. It will serve all humanity better than the dark vision that you are addicted to visualizing.I do not expect that you will hear any of this, or my last post, as anything but words from a forked tongue. I am truly sorry for that. There is so much more than that dark world view. Peace, friend.

  • spidermean2

    justillthen, I don’t invent my OWN doctrine. Jesus said “Iam the way, the truth and the life”. If you think there are MANY ways, then you are mistaken. Christ is the ONLY way and I did not invent that. “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:14)

  • spidermean2

    Justillthen wrote “And Lord Forbid you step between the Mother and Her Baby!”Are you a catholic?

  • CCNL

    Spidermean2/Spiderman2 aka Canyon Shearer, Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion used the following quote supposedly made by Jesus, the simple preacher man: “I am the Way…..” i.e. John 14:6. This passage was invented actually by John according to many NT exegetes and not said by the historical Jesus. It was wishful thinking and an embellishment by John to make Jesus more like the ancient and local gods of first century Palestine. 210-. Place of Life: (1) Dial. Sav. 27-30, (2) John 14:2-12; And Matthew invented Matt 7:14.i.e. Christianity should be renamed as “Paulet al”!!!!

  • spidermean2


  • spidermean2

    asoders22, what I mean by asking them to do magic is “show us how our brains are formed if there is no Higher Intelligence or Creator. Show us the MAGIC. “And as usual no magic will be shown but just a blank stare.

  • spidermean2

    frederic2, you should learn how to read. I just gave you the information what happened to the 1 Egyptian or the other Saudi Nationals you mentioned.Would you allow it that your ignorance will penalize you? Think hard and get yourself informed.

  • spidermean2

    CCNL. you are not an engineer and that may explains why you are not capable of PROVING or TESTING if a statement is TRUE or NOT.Study engineering first and lessons how to understand figures of speeches so you’ll have even the slightest authority to just hold a Bible which is the most intelligent book I’ve read and who as an engineer is obligated to read intelligent books by men.

  • CCNL

    Churches, puppies?? Adoption of a child would be the better option for the Obamas for it would show their commitment to human life and be a great example for the country.

  • CCNL

    My engineering degree and two advanced degrees (MS and PhD) are not needed to determine the truth about Christianity. The required proof of historical events requires only comparison of attestations of these events and the timing/stratum of said events. To wit: 1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or aMany of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. Current crisis:Realization that the Jews are not god’s not chosen people. 2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus’ sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects. The 30% of the NT that is “authentic Jesus” like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus’ case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. For added “pizzazz”, Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the “pew people” to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the “filicider”. Current crises:Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of “pretty wingie thingie” visits and “prophecies” for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).Current crises: Adulterous preachers, “propheteering/ profiteering” evangelicals and atonement theology and Spidermean2!!!!!

  • frederic2

    Reading the utter nonsense both by Cal Thomas and his equally brainless admirers, I feel so good and proud and free and happy to be an atheist.Religion is the result of the weakness of humans to face reality. Instead humans invented the thousands of different religions, in the desperate attempt to minimize the vastness and danger of the reality of nature, and morph it into a little, cozy fairy tale called religion they can better cope with. They called their desperation “truth”, and since people are different, we face millions of “truths”. Once my “personal truth” is established (mostly by being brainwashed by my surroundings), I am obliged to kill everybody who does not believe in “truth”, that is, in my truth.The results are phenomena like micro-educated Spiderman2s, who in their desperate rejection even of the most evident facts (9/11 folks came from Europe? HAHAHA!) use the only resort they have left, which is screaming. Maturity development stage of a 3 year old.No, that is not the needed mentality of a president of the US in today’s dire straits, and I am quite comfortable that Obama seems to think rather than to believe, as was preferred by the disaster guy soon hopefully to sink into oblivion.But, I must admit, these bigot posts have a certain entertainment value, which is demonstrated by the fact that there are quite a few folks answering him, even me, lol!

  • spidermean2

    frederic2, Im telling everyone here that atheists are idiots and you are another prime example. Read this. It’s everywhere in the news and and in documentary channels also. What are you reading and watching? cartoon networks?Mohamed Atta (محمد عطا السيد transliteration: Muhammad ʻAta as-Sayyid) (September 1, 1968 – September 11, 2001) was an Egyptian Islamist, was a known associate of al-Qaeda, and the ringleader of the 19 hijackers in the September 11 attacks.[1][2][3] Atta was at the controls of American Airlines Flight 11 which was the first plane to strike the World Trade Center.Born in a small town in the Nile Delta, Egypt in 1968, Atta moved with his family to the Abdeen section of Cairo at the age of 10. Atta studied architecture at Cairo University, and went to Hamburg, Germany in 1992 to continue his studies at the Technical University of Hamburg, where he remained a student until fall 1999. In Hamburg, Atta became involved with the Al-Quds Mosque. At some point, he met Marwan al-Shehhi, Ramzi Binalshibh, and Ziad Jarrah who all became part of the Hamburg cell. Atta disappeared from Germany for periods of time, spending some time in Afghanistan, including several months in late 1999 and early 2000 when he met Osama bin Laden and other top Al-Qaeda leaders. Atta and the other Hamburg Cell members were recruited by Bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for the “planes operation” in the United States. Atta returned to Hamburg in February 2000, reported his passport stolen and obtained a clean passport.

  • spidermean2

    frederic2, now tell me how do you think would be the scenario if you are WRONG AGAIN with your other idea that there is no God? How does it feel to be WRONG on a GRAND SCALE? Remember, there will be NO backpedalling ONCE we face the CREATOR.Also remember, NO scientist can recreate your brain. It means that there is ONLY ONE CREATOR.I pity you folks. You have no idea what is in store for the enemies of God. God is forever and everything that He does do not end. It would be an eternal burning. Horrifying but that’s the truth.It’s very sad to think that a person would go thru that and that is the BIG REASON why God allowed Himself to be hanged on the cross. IMAGINE, GOD ALLOWING HIMSELF TO BE HANGED? Ponder about it.”For God so loved the world that he gave….”

  • spidermean2

    Justillthen, It’s clear that you don’t understand or don’t believe the Bible. What can I say? Just wait for the missiles coming?It’s coming and at least by my efforts, you know where I got my source.The Book tells who are the future enemies of America and judging how the U.S. military currently do its business, it seems that it’s clueless. And so are you.

  • spidermean2

    It’s clear that you don’t understand or don’t believe the Bible. What can I say? Just wait for the missiles coming?It’s coming and at least by my efforts, you know where I got my source.The Book tells who are the future enemies of America and judging how the U.S. military currently do its business, it seems that it’s clueless. And so are you.

  • Pamsm

    “Pamsm, being born again means Jesus Christ manifested Himself to the person. It’s impossible for a person to claim to have been born again and later become an atheist. It cannot happen otherwise it’s a fake conversion.”The point is, Spidey, they’re ALL fake conversions. A few are able eventually to recognize that. You really should read Dan Barker’s “Godless.” He built his whole life around his faith – did missionary work and became a preacher at 15. Continued that until, in his thirties, he began to read some natural history – light stuff, like Discover magazine – and, to borrow a phrase, the scales fell from his eyes.He recognizes the “mystical experience” for what it really is. He says that he can still call up that feeling at will, but knows now that it’s all in his mind.Once, when he was still caught up in the fantasy, he thought he “heard” God telling him to take a turn while he was driving. He decided to “listen” and follow God’s directions – he would drive straight until he was “told” to turn. As he went he fantasized about what it was that God might be leading him to – a soul that needed saving, perhaps? He continued following the directions until he found himself at a dead end in the middle of a cornfield. He waited there for something to happen, but nothing did, and as darkness fell, he finally turned around and drove home.

  • frederic2

    Spidey,I agree: An Egyptian traveling to Hamburg mysteriously morphs into a Hamburger. Easy for you: Mystery has no borders!The degree of your limited education is gradually shining through: “a Bible which is the most intelligent book I’ve read”. There!How about reading a few other books? Books appealing to the residue of your reading ability instead of asking you to believe “quia absurdum”?

  • spidermean2

    “it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Let your so-called exegetes interpret that verse first before they even call themselves exegetes. Unless they can, all they wrote were pure garbage.

  • spidermean2

    CCNL wrote “My engineering degree and two advanced degrees (MS and PhD) are not needed to determine the truth about Christianity. “If your analytical skills and critical thinking are suspect, then it’s not needed. Also, if you’re NOT capable of figuring out what are figures of speeches and what is NOT, you’ll be hardpressed to understand the Bible.To understand the Bible, you need a VERY INTELLIGENT teacher to help you figure out those figures of speeches like its metaphors and personifications.”neither can he know (or understand) them (the Bible), because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.” (1 Cor. 2:14)Don’t waste your time reading the Bible if you have no respect for it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to understand it unless the AUTHOR (God) allows you to understand it.CCNL, you’re just wasting your time. Counting stones for you may be more relevant. You might end up asking God how many stones there are in this entire earth. Just be humble coz your so-called education is pulling you down.”it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Just remember that God was not referring to a literal snake. Come back to me if you know the answer to that puzzle.

  • spidermean2

    Pamsm, actually I feel sorry for Dan Barker. Maybe nobody taught him about this verse:The reason why many conservative evangelical Christians don’t believe in “new revelations” outside of the Bible is because some false spirits might be behind it. Nobody can be immune from these false spirits. They abound that is why Apostle John told the flock to always test them.That is a sad story that you gave. I really emphatize for him. I don’t understand why he has to drag other people with him to hell if he has a problem with God. Just asking “why did you allowed it God?” might have helped him in a very BIG WAY. He was just to proud to ask.

  • spidermean2

    Frederic2, read this again :” In Hamburg, Atta became involved with the Al-Quds Mosque. At some point, he met Marwan al-Shehhi, Ramzi Binalshibh, and Ziad Jarrah who all became part of the Hamburg cell. Atta disappeared from Germany for periods of time, spending some time in Afghanistan, including several months in late 1999 and early 2000 when he met Osama bin Laden and other top Al-Qaeda leaders. Atta and the other Hamburg Cell members were recruited by Bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for the “planes operation” in the United States. Atta returned to Hamburg in February 2000, reported his passport stolen and obtained a clean passport.”If the German authorities were not so IDIOTLY careless with the things happening around them, no 911 could have happened. Also, don’t allow your ignorance to penalize you later. “Seek and ye shall find. “

  • CCNL

    And the ranting and raving of one very ill-bred and bible-brainwashed Spidermean2 continue.

  • spidermean2

    Don’t waste your time CCNL coz you won’t understand the Bible. Ask a grade 1 pupil instead to read it for you. It might help.

  • CCNL

    As per many OT exegetes, Genesis 3:15 is deemed a mythical saying as one would expect since Adam and Eve were myths.

  • justillthen

    All this bores.

  • justillthen

    Hey DanielintheLionsDen:I wanted to acknowledge the line of thought you were speaking on recently regarding how we as humans want to ascribe human traits and tendencies onto God. This is a profound truth that makes a huge imprint into our relationship with God. Makes it manageable, in some ways, as how could we relate with something so vast as we imagine God is unless we make God small enough to get a handle on…

  • justillthen

    Hey DanielintheLionsDen:I wanted to acknowledge the line of thought you were speaking on recently regarding how we as humans want to ascribe human traits and tendencies onto God. This is a profound truth that makes a huge imprint into our relationship with God. Makes it manageable, in some ways, as how could we relate with something so vast as we imagine God is unless we make God small enough to get a handle on…

  • frederic2

    The (Christian) god (the only Almighty one) guided the Pakistani terrorists to Mumbai. He helped them to kill close to 200 people, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus. Thank you, dear god! Hagee thanked god for sending Hitler to wield the holocaust, which caused the foundation of the state of Israel, which in turn must be destroyed (using Spideys “missles”) to grant the second coming of Jesus etc. etc.Is there more concentrated nonsense imaginable?You can put any content into a successful process of brainwashing: Spidey’s hell, Mumbai terrorists, suicide bombing, 72 virgins, any imaginable variant of superstition, Palin’s witch belief – anything. And the victim always is convinced to be in the possession of truth – one of the surest signs of the brainwashing procedure!.

  • spidermean2

    frederic2, lost people like you and the Mumbai terrorists are the dangerous ones. Christ came to earth to warn people of the danger you’re doing both here on earth and the corresponding punishment it would entail in the afterlife.What did they do to Christ for telling them that? They killed Him coz they are DANGEROUS.In the near future, people which embrace false doctrines will join forces to occupy Israel. These people will be responsible for the first nuke strike. What happens next is doomsday for these DANGEROUS people. So be careful with the path you’re treading. You guys are heading fir DOOM. Just like the Mumbai terrorist had gone. If you are not careful, you would meet those folks in hell.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    SpidermanSo? What’s your point? Do you ever get mixed up and think you’re God? What is your goal, to ruin all of these threads with your mindless babble?

  • spidermean2

    That’s right CCNL. A mythical saying just like the myth of the Phoenix bird which will all happen in the near future.If these people are exegetes, can they explain or interpret what those two myths mean?Clue : The Phoenix and the snake, they both are interconnected if you know or see the whole picture of those two myths. That’s how great the AUTHOR of the Bible is and the power behind the story of the Phoenix.If you can solve the mystery of those myths, all you can say is WOW, only a God is capable of inter-twining such a very sophisticated puzzle.

  • CCNL

    Hmmm, hopefully the “fire bird” will include Spidermean2’s bible and talking snakes in its nest before it ignites in an inferno of myth and fiction.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Folks, don’t mind Spiderman. He is a mean little fellow, who tries to make himself feel bigger by tearing other people down.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    So? Spiderman! What’s wrong with you? You seem like you’re on the verge. Are you? This is nothing to crack up over. Can’t you get your mind off Jesus? You need to get some interests; you need to read a book, or go to the movies. Don’t you have any friends? Well, you have to stop calling everyone stupid and dumb and an idiot, or you never will have any. To have a friend, you have to be a friend. Didn’t your mother ever teach you anything about life?