Separation of Church and

The Methodist Church of Great Britain has became the second denomination to restrict participation in the far-right British National Party, … Continued

The Methodist Church of Great Britain has became the second denomination to restrict participation in the far-right British National Party, which limits its own membership to “Indigenous Caucasian” ethnic groups.

The BNP, which opposes immigration and has claimed to be “defending Britain’s Christian culture” against the “Islamification” of Britain, surprised and dismayed the political establishment by winning two seats in the European Parliament last week.

The Party has been roundly condemned by leaders of the British Methodist Church, the United Reformed Church, the Baptist Union of Great Britain and the Church of England. In February, the Church of England voted to ban its clergy from BNP membership. Last week, Britian’s Methodist Church voted to prohibit all BNP members from joining the church.

Is this good theology or just PC theocracy?

“We must be clear that racism is a denial of the gospel. An openness to all people, regardless of nationality, is at the heart of Methodist identity,” said Rev. Sylvester Deigh, whose motion to ban BNP members from joining the British Methodist Church was adopted Thursday by the church’s annual conference.

“This does not mean that people will be excluded from attending church — God welcomes all, saints and sinners alike. But it does mean that members of racist political parties will not be able to become full members of the Church.”

People of faith certainly should take a stand against racism, but if the church is going to prohibit racists from joining, who’s next? Sexists? Homosexuals or homophobes? Those who join parties that support or oppose legal abortion?

Should the U.S. Catholic Church prohibit its members (including Sen. Edward Kennedy) from joining the Democratic Party, because of its support for legal abortion? Should the United Methodist Church preclude its members (including George W. Bush) from joining the Republican Party, because of its support for Bush’s doctrine of preemptive war?

Killing or just about any form of violence is a denial of the gospel, so should the church refuse membership to members of the military? Greed is a denial of the gospel, so should the church reject investment bankers and millionaires? Lust and adultery and divorce are a denial of the gospel, so should we say goodbye to the politicians in our sanctuaries?

Let he who is without sin cast the first membership vote.

Anglican priest John Wesley, who started the Methodist movement in England in the 1700s, defined a Methodist as “one that lives according to the method laid down in the Bible.”

Wesley and his fellow Methodists met weekly to hold each other accountable to gospel standards. That included feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and giving away each year all they had after providing for their own necessities.

If the Church is going to make gospel standards a requirement for membership, the BNP soon will be larger than the Church.

Written by

  • jolim

    Huh? A church can exclude whomever it choses. Some Catholic churches refuse communion to pro-choicers; you can be kicked out of some evangelical churches for practicing tolerance, let alone being gay or believing in equality of the sexes.Your argument _ad absurdum_ is itself absurd. The churches can’t prohibit its members from joining particular parties. However, they can (and sometimes do) kick them out.As for me, I’m delighted to see a church stand up for tolerance! A little intolerance of the intolerant might just do the world some good.

  • HumanSimpleton

    Christians believe in a three-in-one god who impregnated his virgin mother to be born as his own son so that he may kill himself on the cross to spare his own creation from his own wrath.Fitting that the humanly insane worship the divinely insane!

  • tniederberger

    Babble and whine, babble and whine, religion is as relevent today as it was 20,000 years ago when it was invoked to bring back the herds of animals and the rains to moisten the lands.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CCNL quotes Wikipedia:The party’s current policy is that it does not consider the Jewish, Hindu or Sikh religions to have a significantly detrimental or threatening effect, having several members with Jewish ancestry, but does not accept practising Sikhs or Hindus as culturally or ethnically British.[20] In pursuit of the policy, the BNP has previously worked with extremist Hindu and Sikh groups opposing Islam,[21] and actively tried to win Jewish votes.[22]I. Who are the “several” BNP members with “Jewish ancestry”?

  • k6raman

    Why give importance to religion?

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    k6raman:The ‘Free World’ is unable to seperate Church and State for some reason.


    C O L L I N N I C H O L A S:Pleazzza; Stop Being Jealous already! Or show Low I.Q.!Who the heavens are you in authority to tell OUR good Cyber Denizen Freund, “Don’t encourage him, you might regret it.””Regret” what, The Whole Holy Cosmic Truth (not False)!Note: The BNP is afraid (Jealous) of US, non-OLD time religious Folks, a/k/a SECULAR-MINDEDs Cosmic FEELERS/LOVERS living on Earth justly for a Time, not only in Europe. So,They should’nt be afraid of ex-Jews nor ex-Musloms nor ex-Hindu’s nor ex-Seikhs… yet not afraid of their own un-kinds?Is it because , BNP Mentality, The QUEEN of their England, not ours, Controls the Manufactures & Sales & Exportations of their own Nationalized King James Version (KJV) BIBLES. The Monarchs control Them Theocrats & now their Bureaucraps too!???Socialist England & Similar Nations need another NAPLOLIAN to undue what they did to themselves & others. SoLet the ISLAMICs via the Saudi WAHABi’s take over [Islamicize] ENGLAND, then the rest of Europe; but Never All of America, nor All of Australia or All of New Zealand.Note: Is Canada’s Citys slowly becoming Islamicized too? Do YE hath a Solution to this OLD time Islamic CREEP/Spreadings? a/k/a “AL TAQIYAH”ism (Muslom Zion-ism) instead of Communn-ism!London Bridge is falling Down, Falling Down, La La La LaLaLa….Behold! Nothing is Forever! No Empire is forever, includes Kremlinites, not only Athens or Rome!Islam will also Die but cannot be trusted to stop on its own. It’s like a Virus that mutates within its hosts Nation/Bodys!So If Any OLD time competing religions can be though of as a Disease or Viral; THEN Jealous ISLAM is IT!In a way, the BNP is right to Stop the Religio-Viral “Spread” or “infection” thereof.So do not be a Parasite bub!

  • TalkingHead1

    As in America, the racists of BNP are already Christians, so this isn’t anything new.

  • tmcproductions2004

    Many kkk members still go to evangelical churches in america. So do gangsters, adulterers, and murderers. Can’t we just all assume that the churches don’t endorse their activities? Is a proclamation banning them really necessary? It seems to me these types could gain from god’s words if they chose to attend. Banning them, I am sure, is the least of their problems. How could you minister to them when they get jailed or are on their way to the chair? Ridiculous.I think this was just a “see how holy we are” moment for the methodists. Church attendance may have been down. (if it wasn’t, it soon will be!)

  • walkerbert

    I think if you want people to come back down to Earth, just make it so that religious institutions of any stripe no longer enjoy any kind of tax exemption status, and let the Holy Crusaders take their show on down the road where they won’t jeopardize the political and economic future of their non-zealot neighbors…and good riddance. “Organized religion and organized crime…working together to build a better America”-Carlin”I never missed church, they never missed me”-Unknown

  • hertsred

    The BNP is not just racist. It is an authentic Nazi Party. One of its two new members got his start in politics in the 1960s praising the Holocaust and trying to rehabilitate Hitler, not despite his murder of jews, gypsies and others, but BECAUSE of those acts. The BNP follows the Nazi party in policies on the disabled (euthanaze them); women (kinder, kirche, kuche); on racial purity and in many other ways. No Christian church could possibly allow people who believe such things to be members, they simply do not follow the teachings of Christ in any way whatsoever.




    We must think GLOBALLY 1st & Act LOCALLY 2nd: YetWith the Help of the Islamic WAHABi of Saudi Arabia & the Shia Islmics of Iran that they scan Earth to Populate Lands in order to Spread Islam. Yet as a distraction They Jealously Point at little Israel who also scans for Land (locally, unlike Islam who now wants to dominate/Spread both Locally & Globally; hence the Difference in Global Vs. Local Threats, if any).Note: Pakistan Ceceeded , broke apart a big chunk of land & still encroaching on other lands or neighbors from INDIA over Islamic Excuses/Pretexts; Thus Sunni Islamic PAKISTANi’s are on “STO{LEN LAND” from ancient India not Cannanite/Palistinians. Acsually Islam Invaded GAZA & JERUSALEM & Enforced Wahabiism on them between around 632-691 AD. And from there Spread to Europe!


    Interestingly Secular Ex-Zionist JEWS Should’ve Moved/Settled in Guyana, while they had a chance instead of putting-up with the Jealousy of the Middle Easterns.Building Up a Home-Land in S.A., Guyana would’ve been better. More Water, more Resources/Wealth , better Location & Temperatures and better Safety/Security, any day any time!The JEWISH World would’ve been different!So The would-be or could’ve been citizenary/Sabras of the so called State of ISRAEL of GUYANA, could’ve visited the arid land of Jerusalem & other Biblical Symbolic places by Plane or Boat Once in a Life Time or Annually or whenever!In a Way, many Ex-Zionists Made a Big Mistake moving to that G-D forsaken Land!It is said that California is G-Ds Land, not only Israel, but Guyana is more so G-Ds Landa!O’ Well: It’s Too Late to Reverse History! Now Modern Israel is there to stay. So Islam; Please be Nice to Middle-Eastern Israeli’s from now On!PS: Islam: Please Stop Encroaching and Stealing more Lands. Example: England, Canada, Guyana, Kashmir etc..!

  • Vakraas

    Like Hertsred, I think David Waters is being somewhat disingenuous in implying that the BNP is ‘only’ against immigration and “Islamification”, and ‘only’ in favour of “defending Britain’s Christian culture”. The BNP is a neo-fascist party led by active holocaust deniers that wants to deport all non-whites from the United Kingdom.

  • daweeni

    I don’t care what rules a church makes. What next, should we be telling Catholics who they should give wafers to? If you want to belong to a church, accept the rules. If not, find (or found) another religion. How about the Pure Anglo-Saxon Church of Christ?


    “To not believe in the GOSPEL is Racist”?It should be noted that America’s Ex-President Bushs and ex-President Clintons are Methodists. It was they who first brought-in the Clergy or allowed them, contrary to their own CONSTITUTION, into Government/State business. Yes? NO? Andthat the 6 (six) U.S. SUPREME COURT Justices are all CATHOLIC. Includes potential Sonia Sotomayor. AndIt should be pointed-out to the Vatican or All Christians, Jews and Musloms alike that “the most EVIL STORY ever told” yet double-standardly like, is upheld and has been enforced globally upon Us (the innocent SECULAR-folk of non believers, a/k/a “Racists”?) via their NOAH Racial/Racist Story. Something that All Christians/Abrahamics are still denying to themselves or have been denying to love ones all along during their various Jealousy-Wars, a/k/a Subconscious Religious Wars, and their many many self perpetrated HOLOCAUSTS; post Catholic Hitlers and Moussalini’s or E.Orthodox Stalin’s etc.. or before such monsters. And so, is the Future Leaderships propensity to committ more Holocausts (not only a Jewish one) globally a Myth?”IT IS TIME” to face reality and admitt to yourselves that Abrahamic-Christianity, Islam and Judaism, by their own Bibles is/are RACIST” Racist and very very violent; so much so that we still vomitt during the After Thought” of it all.It was once thought, by Us SECULARists, that the Bible or Koran or Old Bible was for kids. But today, the unveiling of the [religious] Illusions of times past, a/k/a current events, REVEALS that their bibles are Dangerous, not safe, even for their kids, let alone their naive Parents.So being in denial, from truth/Reality, to their own written MYTHs Systems via storys is Blasphamy and Anti-Humanity not only “RACIST”!Are “Whites” SHEMITE folk really “gods chosen people”? or are “Brown” JASPETH folk gods second in line? and are “BLACK” HAMITE folks gods chosen 3rd and Cursed people??So this is the Real Question! Now Where is the Real Answer? Remember; there is NO escape from the Truth (not False).

  • patmatthews

    Churches promote racism, as The Mormon Church, and various American’s use their religious beliefs to harbor negative feelings against black American’s and other minorities through anti-abortion rights groups and other groups using religious beliefs to hold minorities back, such as issues of family planning, birth control, and other issues that allow individuals to actually think for themselves instead of following archaic rules that have no basis in humanity, with the exception to control the lives of other people, and provide money to the teaching that holds people in this misunderstanding of life’s true beauty.Whether a church group offers a hand to a racist will measure the depth of their teaching and the breath of that same teaching. In this case the Church is England’s and the people are English racists that believe they are protecting the purity of their race, not unlike the Klu Klux Klan that went to Church every Sunday, then met every Sunday night with hoods on, after church to discuss their business in America’s past.Church is the source of racist teachings, as history has proven time and time again. Going to church may increase racists views while not going to church may prove just the opposite.Patrick

  • ceflynline

    Since I am not well versed in British tax codes as relates to religious organizations, I can only point out one glaring difference between the UK and the U.S.The British Constitution, which doesn’t exactly exist, has no particular prohibition or separation between Church and State, quite obviously because Britain HAS a State Church, who’s titular head is the Monarch. So whether Churches can put political tests on their members in Britain has long since been decided: They can and do. IS IT A GOOD IDEA? That is up to the Churches. In this case no British precedent has any applicability to American Law, because, to make sure this doesn’t happen, WE have a WRITTEN First Amendment.Carry on.

  • ceflynline

    “Note: Please see the words “SHEPARDIZE” and “STARE DECISIS” (not a god). Commentary: If our young folk not only learned what those words mean , in Latin; Then they will shed their OLDS time religion for a NEW space-forth & active one instead! Yes! The Law works in Mysterious Ways too! Not only someonelses gods! Posted by: SECULARGURU” “Haven’t the foggiest clue as to shepardize, but Stare Decesis, (Let the (previous) Decision stand) is the lagal term for upholding a ruling based of established precedent. Secularguru needs a quick course in Latin or in Law. Both would be ideal.

  • mwcob

    The Church is not a “club” to which membership can be offered or denied. The Church is simply the community of the Christian Faithful – those who believe in the Holy God of Israel, and His Christ, Y’Shua of Nazareth. BUT – leadership is a completely different case. To deny “membership” makes the Church exclusive and self-serving. But if certain Christians have beliefs or behaviours that are in direct conflict with the Godly teachings of the Church, there is more than sufficient measure to exclude them from leadership.

  • willemkraal

    Religion poisons everything it touches, stay away from this hokus/pokus, its a total money making scam, a 24/7 ripoff.

  • cprferry

    Religion transcends politics, it can not be restrained or held separate from the life of any believer. It’s encouraging that Christians are acknowledging God the other 6 days of the week.

  • vigilance7

    WAPO and Newsweek crying about the right to join a Nazi-fascist party? No surprise there. Anyone can have their “right” to join a nazi party–this isn’t the issue. What’s fascinating is that the existence of such a party seems to be not very disturbing to these media elites. I suppose they wouldn’t look as kindly on those who need to protect themselves from such a party.

  • tlusk58

    Know what secular historians tell us about why there was no bloody revolution in England like France? The Methodist. Through the social outreach of these very disciplined and dedicated people social justice came to England because of the things the Methodist were doing. Ever hear of boycotts? John Wesley was the first to start them when he see the slave trade was linked to the sugar that was coming into England. Religious is neither a postive or a negative good to society in general. It is in the specifics that it affects greater justice or just the opposite. Sometimes religion is given too much credit for social change, sometimes not enough.

  • cprferry

    “The Church is not a “club” to which membership can be offered or denied.”Actually it is. There is the the Catholic Church, which calls all believers to follow the teaching authority of the Magisterium.

  • charlietuna6661

    white people are indigenous to the english isles. Why should white people not protect their own ethnicity?

  • asburyjer

    “If the Church is going to make gospel standards a requirement for membership, the BNP soon will be larger than the Church.”This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read, Christianity is about discipleship which is about the transformation of one’s life to resemble as close as we can understand to the life of Jesus Christ as we are aided by the Holy Spirit and those people who conforming their lives in such a manner are welcomed as members this has long been the practice of the Methodist societies. In order to attend the Methodist meetings you had to present a “desire to flee from the wrath to come”, but in order to move into the class meetings and bands your life had to be presenting the signs of discipleship which included as you said; feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and giving away each year all they had after providing for their own necessities. However, this did not mean that there was nothing that could keep you out of the societies neither did it mean that you could find yourself uninvited as a matter of fact John Wesley would uninvite people regularly who were failing to live up to the Methodist standards. And just in case you think that those types of practices spell the end of the church well just check out the status of the global United Methodist church, I think that should be evidence enough.


    EXCOMMUNICATION. An ecclesiastical censure by which one is more or less excluded from communion with the faithful. It is also called , especially if it is inflicted with formal solemnities on persons notoriously obstinate to reconciliation. Some excommunicated persons are (to be avoided), others (tolerated). No one is unless that person has been publicly excommunicated by name by the Holy See, and it is expressly stated that the person is “to be avoided.” Anyone who lays violent hands on the Pope is automatically . In general, the effects of excommunication affect the person’s right to receive the sacraments, or Christian burial, until the individual repents and is reconciled with the Church. In order for an excommunication to take effect, the person must have been objectively guilty of the crime charged. (Etym. Latin , from + , to communicate: , exclusion from a community.)Thus as to the sinner: Matt. 9: 9cf. “And he arose up and followed him. 10 And it came to pass as he was sitting at meat in the house, behold many publicans and sinners came, and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. 11 And the Pharisees seeing it, said to his disciples: Why doth your master eat with publicans and sinners? 12 But Jesus hearing it, said: They that are in health need not a physician, but they that are ill. 13 Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners.” I am afraid that includes the abortionists and pro-abortion murderers.”Hence, if the Church ran off all the sinners who would they minister to?

  • asburyjer

    Gotta love all the BS being spewed about Christianity being racist especially when it was an Evangelical Anglican named William Wilberforce who brought an end to the slave trade in England, not to mention it was the churches in the Civil Rights movement that brought an end to racial discrimination in our own country, also it was the women’s groups from the Methodist church that played a huge role in allowing women to vote in our own country.People who say that Christianity is by its very nature racists are liars and fools who allow the putrid actions of some to cloud their thinking while they comment on a faith they no nothing about, and while they criticize a book they have never read.


    According to Chritian Theolgians/Agents of the NEW-BIBLE/TESTAMENT, that the N.B/T. quasi storys suppercedes the OLD-BIBLE/CHUMASH, The Pagan and the Hindu and the Buddhist beliefs/writings systems too.Yet them Christians still include the Old-Testament as if NEW.Everytime one mentions, to ANY ABRAHAMIC, the hungover RACIST NOAH Story’s [mentioned above this post] that thir followers/worshipers say “IT is not the NEW testament that is cursed” rather it is the OLD-Testament that was cleansed via Jesus/Yashua and his diciples storys. So we included it as a refrence.??? ButThey (Abrahamics) never tell you about the Vedic/Hindu and Vedic/Buddhist Religions of their Christian times. Example: THEOLOGIANS/CLERICS do mention that Abrahmic/Christianity supercedes Abrahamic/Jews (islam was unforseen for Ex-Idol Worshippers turned Musloms) nor the Vedic/Hindu nor the Buddhist religions via any their Prophets therefrom. Even the Hindu Gita sais, “… Forsake ALL Religions (except Hinduism)…” where the only way to get to travel/recycle via miracle birth awareness is through “KRISHNA” the Jesus/Yashua figure of Hindu’s and Buddhists alike.Is Abrahams/Christians living Half-Life in the OLD Bible and Half-Life in the NEW?? One foot in Old and another foot in the New bibles? 1/2 the Brain in the OLD thinking and using the other 1/2 the brain thinking in the NEW?Is Religious based “Double Standards Psychosis” a Real Diseas/Ailment or dilema? Is having multiple characters via “SCIZOPHRENIA” (not neccessarily Paranoid) a real State of Mind?Then to the SECULAR WORLD such two-sidedness is Crazy/Insain, a/k/a not normal Paranormal thinking. A Dangerous situation for both their believers and Us, non-OLD nor NEW Bible, believers (Racists?). Hence WE Secularists are blessed with open-minds, not cursed! Nor do WE (Secularist) forgett the difference between RIGHTS and WRONGS! Example” A “Human-WRONGs against a Human-RIGHTs” is our 1st awareness to Prevent as long as sanity Prevails here. Nothingg to do with Good or Evil, or a Sin or Curse. WE are aware that ANY-Birth is a Miracle and never was being born any curse; contrary to any Bible (new-age, old-age) system/storys. According to Christians and Musloms and Jews etc.. that All their Kids are born in some SIN story and or via a Sexual-Guilt story; like in NOAH Racist Storys.Note: This World can blow-up all their “WMDs”, a/k/a Atomic Bombs, at once and the Earth will still be here; maybe not humans. But Earth is resilent, aka DYNAMIC, and not like in the Bibles-Books STATIC! SoSECULARism is a Dynamic feeling and thinking Religion like is our real story; and not Static but jealous Abrahamic and Vedic gods religion systems, all competing and killing for a name of our SOURCE-ONE, creator/Almighty/Lord of our Secular “Photon” storys, not their bible “light” storys! Hence another difference or diverence in “THEM Vs. US” thinking/imaginations.

  • slduncan79

    I can see both sides of this. Most of us would recoil from a church who banned members from mainstream political parties (something similar happened at Regents where they banned the College Democrats and we all think that’s crazy I hope). On the other hand the BNP is no ordinary political party. They’re openly racist in a way that even the far right parties in places like Austria, France, and Switzerland aren’t (in Britain’s defense those parties get a lot more votes than the BNP does) and they’ve links to violent groups. They don’t just spout hate they put it into action. So I think they’ve crossed a line and it’s good the church has stood up to them. Honestly don’t all of us think that the failure of the Lutheran and Catholic churches in Germany to take a stand against the Nazis is a black mark against them? Granted the Methodists don’t have the clout in modern Britain that the Catholic or Lutheran church had in 30s Germany but I still think it’s an important step.

  • murrayhill31

    I recall a definition of a Methodist as a Baptist who can read.

  • marymack77

    Remember what Jesus did when they were trying to trap him into taking a political stand?

  • dgblues

    Sounds just like the US where ultra right wing bishops publicly deny communion to politicians who refuse to codify the Catholic church’s medieval dogma into laws and policies that apply to a population that is fully three-quarters non-Catholic.And I look for the radicalized remnants of what was the Republican party to merge with BNP. They’re already halfway there: “defending” a nation founded on freedom of or from religion as a “Christian” nation, as is their wont between illicit affairs with partners of varying genders. Or engaging the enemy in an imaginary “War on Christmas.” Or controlling the disposition of the nation’s female genitalia from Washington whether those women believe in their medieval superstitions or not. The list goes on and on, and the hypocrisy has reached new heights. But hypocrisy has never dissuaded a zealot fueled by the arrogance that their invisible sky daddy is watching over them. No means are unjustified to their ends: a Christo-fascist totalitarian state.


    ASBURYJER:Besides Importing Diseases here, It was both the Christian SPAIN-Church (ex-Pagans turned Abrahamic) and the Christian ENGLISH-Church’s (ex-pagans turned Abrahamic) via competing god flavors (remember the Alamo, the Spanish, Canadian Wars too?) that is “NOT MADE IN AMERICA” ALL are IMPORTED from the Abroad.Remember and do not be in denial to truth (not False) Story/Historys that they exported their religions here and Enforced such foreign god sytems via the hungover NOAH storys etc.. here , and elsewhere, against them so called peacefull but “Igeneous” defensless 1/2 Naked Americans , a/k/a “Ab-Original” folks.All imported Abrahamics & competing Vedic & Pagan & Vodoo/Shamin Systems are “NOT MADE IN AMERICA”? Includes the MORMAN Religion System which depends/rely’s-on importing their King James Version bibles. without the KJV theres No Mormon Christians turned, as if be genuine Ab-orginal, Americans?No way Jose! So America does not belong to any imported Religion System. The God of Earths; not the Jealous gods of Abrahams nor the jealous gods of Vedics competing for a religion systems etc.., is KING/KHAN/CHIEF…The GOD of AMERICA is the GOD of EARTH Plus the Galaxy’s! Not imported from middle East or Europe or Asia Major/Minors. IT is imported from our holy Univerese, not theirs!Not MOSES, not Jesus, not Muhammad, not VYASA, not GAUTAMA, not CONFUCIOUS etc.. Unlike yours? OUR G-D has ZERO Gender! OUR GENES do not have a certain flavor of your gods system embedded therein, nor deriveth therefrom.Only Men & Woman can FEAR and only Men & Woman get JEALOUS! Your gods get Jealous; Not OUR G-D!Become one of Us, not them.

  • jamshark70

    –POSTED BY: CHARLIETUNA6661 | JULY 12, 2009 7:33 AM White people are not indigenous to the US. By your logic, Native Americans should kick us all out (as a matter of protecting their ethnicity and territory).A large part of happiness in life is learning to accept change. Demographics change. It’s a fact of life and it will never stop. Getting upset about that is one’s own choice, but it is not the “fault” of the change itself.Besides, there’s that inconvenient little comment by some middle eastern guy a couple thousand years ago, went something like this.LOVE THY NEIGHBOR.Lip service is easy, practice is hard.


    When one is medically prescribed a PLACEBO it is known a sham via medical intervention intended/Deliberate to lead the recipient believer that it may improve his/her condition, but not told that it is in fact inert. AndFor the Same way that when a Clergy Soldier or Priest prescribes WAFERS/EUCHARIST/COMMUNION , a/k/a Symbolic Cannibalism & Symbolic Vampirism via the “Body & Flesh” of Jesus/gods Son, that it is a PLACEBo in its own rights? which also makes the recipient/BELIEVER think (falsley) that they will be Strong & god forbid, if die in battle (MATYRED), will be born again like Jesus did???????Using words such as “SHAM” and SHAIM or FOOLS or Idiot Savants, is not enough to explain/expose such god fearing & thinking naive-Believers.Amazing! They (Participents or Recipients) , includes their licensed Clergy/Popes/Rabbis/Immams/Priests, do not know their own G-D System!OUR “G-D SYSTEM” is not their god systems!OUR “G-D SYSTEM” is fearless, not their gods systems!OUR “G-D SYSTEM” does not go back on its Word! Unlike their jealous & war mongering gods systems.OUR “G-D SYSTEM” , unlike your golds systemsdoes not have a seperate HELL worlds nor a seperate HEAVEN worlds!JUSTLY be good. And do not KILL; unless Justifiably! Speak Good. Do Good. Think Good. But the COMMONALITY between Us & Them is that WE share some, not all TAUTOLOGY’s. Example: Are the Son/Daughter of your Mother/Father? So We all know (Naturally) to be good, do mitzvah/deeds, be nice etc..!WE do not need Chumash/Bibles or Quran/Korans or Gita/Scruti’s or Kangyurs/Tangyurs etc.. to Tell Us Tautology [Something WE-Adults, not kids, already Know]!Remember the saying, “OH How I knew Then What I know Now!”? SoWE do-not need any Moses or Jesus or Muhammad or Vyasa or Gautama or Confusious etc.. to Bring-out ou US TRUE (not False) “MORALITY-AWARENESS”!You see; From OLD or OLDEST cometh NEW or NEWER! A cycle, like OUR Miraculous Biofinite Carbon-Based Cycle that is Omipresently happening on many Worlds; not unjustly here!WE (maybe you & your kids) are bORN IN MIRACLE & never via anyones OLD-time religions SIN/CURSE storys! WE are “NATURALLY SELECTED” never as if be “gods chosen people” (of their Bible; not ours) or worshiping or copying/mimicking such OLD preposterous-ity!THEREFORE: You believers of the OLD gods systems; Please Bend (not Submitt) with US (SECULAR-MINDS) or else perish!


    Indigenous people that have worked very hard for long period of time to create a better life/ society DO have the right to exclude from their society any type of creatures whose existence can not be justified having never contributed anything of value to the society/world.


    DEAR Mr. WATERS & WAPO MODERATORS & or STAFF (paid or unpaid):Ye hath learned alot from US “SECULAR-NATIONALIS”, a/k/a the “Naturally Selected”, not gods chosen. WE are a/k/a the “Automatic Borneth Citizenz/Denizens” of holy NEBULA-BUILT S.pace S.hip Earth(s); ANDYe hath jealously purged/deleted some of OUR work, includes Plagerized or Disseminated in the Media/writting/talking circuit!Since WE taught you to learn to Cite Law Cases in your work/essays, not just Conocol/Canon Laws etc.., that it would be appreciating if You & your Christian own blog here can Admitt (not be in Denial) that to believe in “SECULAR”-ity , in America as a proud secularist, unlike being non-Straight, is a real & Naturall RELIGION of sorts. “SECULARITY” Is as real as Apple-pie & Icecream! Please see two particular U.S. Federal LAW/BOOKS (Tantamount to a BIBLE) recognizing SECULARity as a RELIGION, so to speak truth (not False) at:1) Lemon Vs. Kurtzman, @ 403 U.S. 602 (1971)et seq on SECULAR PURPOSE… And2) Tor Vs. Watkins, @ 367 U.S. 488 (1961; Pre-1969) on Secular Humanism as religion et seq.Note: Please see the words “SHEPARDIZE” and “STARE DECISIS” (not a god).Commentary: If our young folk not only learned what those words mean , in Latin; Then they will shed their OLDS time religion for a NEW space-forth & active one instead!Yes! The Law works in Mysterious Ways too! Not only someonelses gods!

  • coloradodog

    TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2 wants us to believe, “The Church is not in the business of Politics”That’s why the Church set up Obama by inviting him to Notre Dame. They knew his stand on abortion beforehand and invited him so he could be attacked there and in the press by O’Reilly Catholics including the Clergy.That’s why Archbishops threaten to deny communion to US legislators if they don’t vote the way the church deems.That’s why the Church claims the Pope to be the “Head of State” of the Vatican as a separate country without registering his “Ambassadors” (priests, bishops, cardinals) as foreign agents in the US.That’s why the Church ignores US criminal laws by hiding, aiding and abetting pedophiles in its Clergy (oh, don’t tell me there isn’t a double standard for pedophile priests. How many of them went to prison, were defrocked or excommunicated? Compare their fate with run-of-the-mill pedophiles in society in general who go to prison for life or worse).Catholics who tell us, “The Church is not in the business of Politics” are either delusional or outright liars like their intolerant Mormon counterparts who claim the same thing and then form a massive PAC to support anti-gay ballot initiatives.

  • colinnicholas

    We treat religion as if it originated with wise people in enlightened times, when the opposite is true. Religion comes to us from the darkness and ignorance of our ancient ancestors who were irrational and superstitious to a fault. We are fools if we believe that they were wiser than we are today. Religion was invented by cavemen who understood nothing but how to hunt and gather.

  • ccnl1

    From Wikipedia:”The British National Party (BNP) is a far-right political party in the United Kingdom, formed as a splinter group of the British National Front by John Tyndall in 1982.[12] The party’s current chairman is Nick Griffin, himself a former national organiser of the National Front.[13]””Historically the BNP (including Nick Griffin) was overtly anti-Semitic; in recent history the BNP has instead focused against the presence of Islam in Britain. The party’s current policy is that it does not consider the Jewish, Hindu or Sikh religions to have a significantly detrimental or threatening effect, having several members with Jewish ancestry, but does not accept practising Sikhs or Hindus as culturally or ethnically British.[20] In pursuit of the policy, the BNP has previously worked with extremist Hindu and Sikh groups opposing Islam,[21] and actively tried to win Jewish votes.[22] The party’s racial policies have led to their ostracism by mainstream politicians and the leaders of Westminster’s major parties, including Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown,[23] former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair,[24] Conservative Party leader David Cameron,[25] Liberal Democrat party leader Nick Clegg,[26] and former Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell[27]”Bottom line: A British version of the KKK/Nazi Party which the British government should ban.

  • abhab

    An Islamic cleric told the Archbishop of Izmir: “Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws we will dominate you.”

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    The BNP “victory” in the European Parliament was, of course, met with alarm. Nazism bloodied the soil of the continent, and there is fear of its resurfacing in its original form.With good reason. Antisemitism is as much a problem as Islamophobia both within the BNP and within the general populace. Europe has never dealt with the former which opened the door to the latter. The issue is not this or that church. The issue is what the BNP is symptomatic of, namely, the need for Europe to face its own racism squarely, and undertake a long overdue re-education problem before it is too late–that is, if it is not too late, already.

  • usapdx


  • colinnicholas

    asburyjer Christendom tolerated slavery for hundreds of years. Even the Wholly Babble condones it.Wilberforce was a member of parliament in more enlightened times, when the horror of slavery was in the air, and fought against by many others before Wilberforce was involved. Yes he was religious, as were most people at that time, and was no doubt driven by it on a personal level. But praising religion for ending slavery is not justified. The church and many priests owned slaves at different times, in various parts of the world, either as servants or field workers.

  • jec1ny

    It’s a bit PC. But the bottom line is that any church has the right to set its own rules for members. If you don’t like those rules you have two choices… lump it or leave. The Methodists are not the only Christians who prohibit members from belonging to groups that are inconsistent with its beliefs and values.Many churches bar membership in pro-abortion groups. Not that long ago the Roman Catholic bishop of Lincoln Nebraska actually published a list of groups that Catholics could not join under penalty of excommunication. In addition to anti-life organizations others included schismatic sects, racist groups and the Free Masons. (The Orthodox Church also proscribes membership in the Masons.)This is hardly new. Whether or not you like it probably depends to some degree on your views on organized religion and of course, on which groups are being put under the ban. In the end though churches have broad latitude when it comes to regulating their members.

  • James10

    I’m sure they can find a church that will have them.


    JEC1NY:You said: “But the bottom line is that any church has the right to set its own rules for members.. And said, “… If you don’t like those rules you have two choices… lump it or leave…”This is exactly what I’ve been trying to explain by saying THAT:All those TAX-Exemp or Not For Prophet/Profits” I.R.S. Registered CHURCHES should not be TAX Exempt off the Publics necks! Note: Evangelousicals church’ or even Methodisticals ones can chose (godly or not) their own Members , ironically-discriminantly ,and set their own agendas/Criteria , for what ever ulteriar-purpose Religious end their spirits desire or as Much as they Like to a point. But, But OUR U.S., I.R.S.’s TAX-Exempt” Code/Law/Rule (a PRIVILIGE not a RIGHT) should be eliminated once and for All for ALL, EVERY and ANY, Not Made in America Religions systems! [IMPORTED] Religions!So to think of It; then a Federally created “Faith based” department , not by any EXECTIVE ORDERS, should oversee and pay-out a specially alloted congressional “FEDERAL-TITHE” (not Perpetual) to each registered imported religion system, as would be required by OUR Secular-ity Law(s)!.This way Obama’s FAITH-BASED Community/Initiatives (inViting Clergy into STATE business/issues, contrary to Constitution, was started/usurped By Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan 1980’s) and later the CLINTONS and then BUSH Jr. and now OBAMA whom INHERITED such a practice, contrary to U.S. Constitution.Since the White-House is DOING IT & DENYING IT (Openly Flouting [OUR] Constitution) then its best if WE THE PEOPLE Let the ExECUTIVE Branch Faith Based Created Initiatives migrate into a Special Office of Congress in order to Dish Out tax Moneys, From [OUR] Treasury annually and thus pay x-dollars to x-churches. Note: Be aware that Like mega-WalMart, the MEGA-CHURCHES are squeezing-out the little guy too. After all: Religion is a big Business: Think Arena’s Full of Nut Cases!In the Richman of Europe, not China, the GERMAN Government allocates x-Dutchmarks/Euro’s to x-Churches (except Scientologysts). So Tithe Taking/giving & their churches tax Exempty Statis is Prohibited by SECULAR-LAW. SoAmerica, are ye-all ready for this here!??? Can YE handle IT here!??? Does It make Sense here? Can we IMPORT a SECULAR IDEA instead of a Imported Religious one???Lets give genuine PEACE a chance Will Ya!Please TELL-US what ye thinketh, OUR Sons & Daughters (All Naturally Selected) via SOURCE-ONE, not OLD time religions.


    USAPDX:MEGA CHURCHES (Mosques, Sunogogues…) makes sense because it is Cheaper to Allocate Faith Based [congressional, no longer Executively] initiative moneys.Note: All Churches whom are I.R.S. Tax-Exempt now should make their moneys [Financial BOOKS, not bibles] readilly available to ALL its CONGREGANTS/Actors/Players therein & therefrom; short of the PUBLIC? But those whom stick hands/hat out for Federal FAITH Based Moneys will OPEN their Churchs to the GENERAL SECULAR/PUBLICans for Scutiny. ButBut Churches whom Choose not to be “I.R.S. tax Exempt”, will have to become for profits & thus Private Business entitys. So the Clergys can share the BOOKS (financials too) between themselves and not Congregants.Its high time that American Churches, who worship Imported Religion Systems, Must Stop living off the necks of “THE SECULAR PEOPLE!, a/k/a “WE, THE PEOPLE” whom been supporting such Evil-Imported Religion Systems, not MADE IN AMERICA!Imagine a POPE being a trained HYPNOTIST specialist and Behind Closed Doors? gets Close Enough, out of Public Sight & out of Public Mind, And has Powers to HYPNOTISE our President. Same Goes for Arab Theologians & Monarchic whom come too close also? This is what They Do! Or Try to Do (win You, Controll You), if they could get away with it.So a Good Policy is not To Meet , on SECUALR Time & MONEY, behind Closed Doors with any Head of a Church, instead of a Government!Never Know whats up them Religious Sleeves or Eyes.SEPERATION OF CHURCH from STATE SHOULD BE ENFORCED! Time to Emancipate [OUR] Original Constitution from the Jealous ones!


    COLORADODOG:NO, I’m off the MEDS!Some folk would like to see the Contrary?Now Ye knoweth why there is some Sanity to all da Insanitys around here!HMMMMMmmmmm.

  • colinnicholas

    coloradodog;you write”Wow, JJ must be on his meds today. His last post was actually coherent and makes sense.”Don’t encourage him, you might regret it.Regards.

  • theobserver4

    Grrrrrrr Anything to drag abortion into the conversation.I’m sorry but racists, sexists and homophobes should not be full fledged members of the Christian churches. Those who hate are something else entirely. The fact that the Methodist membership would dwindle to next to nothing if its members actually followed the gospel is not a condemnation of the church, but of the hypocritical members. And yes eventually Republicans would not be allowed to be full fledged members because hunger is not a motivator and shunning the homeless as a lifestyle choice is sick.

  • theobserver4

    white people are indigenous to the english isles. Why should white people not protect their own ethnicity?POSTED BY: CHARLIETUNA6661 | JULY 12, 2009 7:33 AM We’ve almost comleted the puzzle provided by CharlieTuna’s postings and it sure looks ugly.

  • srb2

    To the BNP: Wear this as a badge of honor, a nod to rational thought and a rejection of the reactionaries who impose political correctness with their hypocritical bumper stickers: “End Racism”… which really means, “End Some Racism”… which really means, “End Your Racism”… which really means, “End Your Racism — Mine’s the Good Racism”.

  • ak362

    Having spent a small bit of time in London on-and-off over the past couple of years, I have to say that the BNP’s rise in Britain is absolutely disturbing. I think it is perfectly fine for churches to do their utmost to ban members of a particular radical organization. Your comparison to the Catholics and Democrats in the United States is a little absurd, in my opinion. If the Catholic Church (or the evangelical Christian bodies) were to have a say in governance of parties in the United States, we … wouldn’t have political parties, now would we. Both the Democrats and the Republicans hold steadfast to tenets that violate the basic moral principles of Christianity, as well as adhere strongly to them. Some violations of religious tenets are outright and overt – e.g. the debate on choice and Democrats. Others are more subtle, but more egregious in their violation – e.g. the Republicans and their wanton contempt for life by engaging in war and ignoring the principles of social justice which every Christian should adhere to. The very nature of the BNP deserves condemnation and outcry for what they stand for – if religious leaders are the first to take action, then so be it. Let them do as they please. The BNP is not a political party – it is a radical group espousing hatred that has only masked its true colors for the sake of conveying some semblance of political orthodoxy. Thank goodness Britain’s laws are sensible enough to prevent the BNP from stating its true creed – but they should cease to exist as a political organization. When one of your more prominent members (Richard Barnbrook, a London Assembly member) dress in fashion akin to Adolf Hitler and states that those seeking rights should stay inside their homes and do nothing – when Nick Griffin, head of the BNP has repeatedly spewed anti-(all but British) rhetoric, then they should be banned off the face of the British Isles. Perhaps religion will, for once, take the first step and take action where the government fails to.


    Religion just needs to stay out of politics and government in general because it serves no good but to divide people and force it’s dogma on others. Let’s not follow backwards third world countries and devolve into theocracies! In addition, religion is just plain ignorant and silly… which reminds me of something I saw some time ago: The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch! ‘Tis oneArmaments, Chapter Two, Verses Nine to Twenty-One:And Saint Atila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, ‘Oh, Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thy enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.’ And the Lord did grin, and people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, And the Lord spake, saying, ‘First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. AMEN”

  • apissedant

    Bitter hatred and bigotry go beyond a simple difference in political opinion or a small sin. Also, a millionaire is not greedy because he is a millionaire. Many millionaires make their money honestly, and do great works with their money. Many more do not, but still, it is incorrect to immediately cast all as sinners.Anyways, as I was saying, the danger of bigotry and hatred is too great. We can disagree about when exactly an egg becomes a person, or how much wealth is too much, but you can’t just hate entire sub-groups for how they were born. Nothing about their personality, their heart, or their brains, just the color of their skin.First off, the group they’re excluding excluded others first. As stated by another commenter, being intolerant of the intolerant is not a bad thing in anyway. The British government has their no entry list filled with bigots. Germany has a law against denying the holocaust. These are great rules that prevent us from slipping back into our hate filled pasts.The slipper slope argument is stupid. The ban is on bigotry based on race, which is nearly universally accepted as wrong. Each of the items you listed has a withering majority who agree with you, until the end of your list, where you would actually be in the minority in calling things like divorce as long lasting sins. After all, a divorce is a “sin” that you commit, and then go ask for forgiveness. Bigotry is a sin you are continuing to commit, and therefore can never ask for God’s forgiveness.As long as you confine your restrictions to the clearly unacceptable behaviors, the slipper slope never begins, and the church is better off than it would have been with no restrictions.

  • MillPond2

    Today’s column is, to quote Shakespeare, much ado about nothing. What in the world would mainstream British Methodists have in common with the so-called British National Party? If such a religious organization is worried about their members joining what most compassionate people would consider a morally questionable and ignorant group, what does that say about the moral and ethical core of that religious organization? If British Methodists are worried that some of their members might join a marginal and extremist group such as the BNP, then possibly there is a weakness or defensiveness that lies within, not without.All of the other rhetorical questions posed by this column in the wake of the British situation have the solidity of a popsicle dropped on a hot July sidewalk.

  • Robe2

    When I was a little boy growing up in Detroit, in the 1950s, the local Catholic Pastor sent out a notice to the parents of boys and girls attending public schools that they should not allow their children to attend the YMCA.I was unhappy with that notice since I just wanted to swim in the pool and play indoor basketball.Years later, when I was a college student, I went to the local Y since their “gym dues” was much less than corporate gyms. (I did not tell the Pastor! Just kidding, by then I did not even have a Pastor. Time marched on.)

  • ZZim

    “If the Church is going to make gospel standards a requirement for membership, the BNP soon will be larger than the Church.”So what? Churches are just another ideology competing in the marketplace of ideas. Organizations with popular ideas will attract more members than organizations with unpopular ideas. Organizations with a “small tent” will have a narrower, more focused membership than organizations with a “big tent”.Again, so what?

  • ScottChallenger

    A religion telling it’s voluntary members what political group or party to not affiliate with?! Unless your head has been in the ground the last eight years, sounds an awful like the unwritten and unstated rule that the so-called American Christians have. Thall shall be GOP.

  • formerheap

    Then there’s that club of parishioners who have an opinion,excuse,comment,and family name to get them out of any situation,any criminal activity,and the “priest” will still come them with a cell phone call.When the cell phone doesn’t work,is out of range,or is not available,then the obligatory “confessional” will do since most “good catholics” really believe that they just have to confess to a priest or a man in a robe and all is right with the world.Wonder if clergy have to “report”any confessions of abuse or are they obligated to fight those battle for their flock in court and have their pictures in the papers or on the news as “pediaphiles”?

  • EndTheSpin

    Churches need to draw the line.The hypocrisy must stop.Look at the self-professed christians in America who spew anti-Muslim hate. They certainly belie the teachings of Christ.Hypocrisy and hate undermines the relevancy and truth of the word and faith.

  • NYer

    Does a relgious organization have the right to restrict who can be a member based upon the publicly professed beliefs of the member/applicant? Of course it does. It doesn’t have the power to restict the person’s belief or action (i.e., joining a political party); however,it clearly has the right to say that your publicly held beliefs are incompatible with our organization.An organized religion is organized around a common set of beliefs. If such an organization were forced to accept all members regardless of belief, it would cease to exist.Where the debate gets trickier is in deciding who within the religous organization decides what are the essential elements of belief and what happens when siginificant numbers of long standing members no longer share that common belief. Does the not commonly shared belief fall by the wayside or do those disagreeing separate?

  • BobThompson

    Any church organization makes its own rules about this and racism is objectionable in any form. However, the description of the BNP position makes me think someone is having trouble separating the notion of racism from those of culture, religion, and politics including the church in this case.

  • EarlC

    At least after reading this article, I suspect I know where the current Republican Party which is led by Limbaugh and Palin is headed. As for me, I stand with the position of the Methodists in the UK. Jesus preached inclusion (tolerance?). Even the intolerant are welcome to attend Christian worship services, why would they? They worship the forces of darkness. I forgot, the KKK has been littered with “Christians.”

  • grouchcouch

    It’s one thing to ask whether the church ought to ban participation in this group. It’s quite another to question whether a church should ban participation in any group. The slippery slope (a logical fallacy anyway) is on both sides of the mountain. For every ridiculous possibility the author can think of, I can think of the opposite: should the church accept serial killers? Torturers? Non-christians? Churches can make whatever rules they want–the only issue is which rules are reasonable.

  • screwyou

    Churches are private clubs so they can do whatever they want behind their doors. Consenting adults and all that.Probably the bigger question to ask is why their faith has been such a failure in affecting their members. If the churches support racism and bigotry, then we would expect their members to join such parties. If their interpretation of the bible is against such prejudice, then they are failing in a major way to properly indoctrinate their followers. And that is a problem for them, since it probably affects other areas.In other words, the leadership should be looking at themselves and their own failures here, because their magic isn’t working. And that goes for the U.S. Catholics who want to ban pro-choice politicians from taking communion and the evangelicals who police their members’ personal lives.

  • castiger1

    I am a United Methodist Clergy in Illinois. While I am always very cautious about denying a person membership to a church I can sympathize with the British Methodist position. I also very much disagree with the logic of the initial post. The church should hold people to gospel standards, not as some sort of means to restrict people but to help them be the best Christians and the best people they can be. In Methodist ordination vows, one is asked if they are going on to perfection. The idea is we seek to do the will of God, knowing that when we fall short the grace that our movement has always championed is there to forgive us and call us back to the way of Christ. Also the initial author talked about does this set a bad standard that could allow for homosexuals or others to be excluded. I can understand that concern. However in my mind racism is simply evil with no questions. I know that what is evil can be in the eye of the beholder, but things like racism or the exploitation of children I believe can simply be declared a sin and evil, and a person who unrepentantly committed such sins and tried to propagate such evil ideas I would not want as a member of my church, though I would hope that if they came to my church or any church the grace of God could begin to work on them and change their heart.

  • Chagasman

    No church should tell it members how to vote or what party they should belong to. However, every church has the duty to tell it followers when a political party is racist, facist, and just pure evil that they shouldn’t join, because the party is going against the word of Jesus, which was tolerance, love, and charity. By that virture, the evangelicals should disown the Republican party, which stands not for tolerance, but for hatred; not for love, but war; not for charity, but survival of the fittest.

  • huguenotklj

    It should be noted that Jesus did not come to establish a kingdom on earth. When we imagine that what we have here – albeit with the proverbial “new coat of paint” – is what Jesus’ Kingdom is like, we miss the point. In Christ’s Kingdom, there will be “no Jew, no Greek, no slave, no free, no male, no female; for we are all one in Christ Jesus.” Frankly, the people of the BNP are precisely the people came to save. Only in great weakness (like the BNP’s racism) can we truly recognize the depth of God’s grace.

  • telesonic

    This is a piece of showmanship – a bit of chest-thumping by the Methodist Church, an increasingly irrelevant institution in a mostly secular country.I can’t imagine why anyone would want to be a BNP member OR a Methodist.

  • ThomasBaum

    Seems as if many, many people are going to be in for quite a shock when they find out that God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.Also, that it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.It is hard to tell whether there are more “holier than thous” among those that believe in God or those that do not believe in God but that is of absolutely no concern of mine, considering that God is not only the Judge of ALL HUMANITY but also the Saviour of ALL HUMANITY.I am thankful that God has a Plan and has had a Plan since before creation and that God’s Plan will come to Fruition.Does it seem to anyone else that the Family of Man, as in humanity, is, to put it mildly, somewhat dysfunctional?See you all in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ccnl1

    Seems as if many, many people are going to be in for quite a shock when they find out that this is all there is. Enjoy it safely!!!

  • csw18

    Sometimes authors use a novel or screenplay to support political or social beliefs; or to cry out for morality and ethical prinicples. This is no more clearly evident than with Holocaust books and films. Whenever we stand up to those who deny or minimize the Holocaust, or to those who support genocide we send a critical message to the world. We live in an age of vulnerability. Holocaust deniers ply their mendacious poison everywhere, especially with young people on the Internet. We know from captured German war records that millions of innocent Jews (and others) were systematically exterminated by Nazi Germany – most in gas chambers. Holocaust books and films help to tell the true story of the Shoah, combating anti-Semitic historical revision. And, they protect future generations from making the same mistakes.I wrote “Jacob’s Courage” to promote Holocaust education. This coming of age love story presents accurate scenes and situations of Jews in ghettos and concentration camps, with particular attention to Theresienstadt and Auschwitz. It examines a constellation of emotions during a time of incomprehensible brutality. A world that continues to allow genocide requires such ethical reminders and remediation.Many authors feel compelled to use their talent to promote moral causes. Holocaust books and movies carry that message globally, in an age when the world needs to learn that genocide is unacceptable. Such authors attempt to show the world that religious, racial, ethnic and gender persecution is wrong; and that tolerance is our progeny’s only hope.Charles Weinblatt

  • DoTheRightThing

    The author stated “…[J]ust about any form of violence is a denial of the gospel…”, which is absurd. The scriptures themselves tell of a soldier who asked what he needed to do to be a follower of Christ, and was told something like, “Be content with your pay and do not harm women and children.”

  • ThomasBaum

    ccnl1You wrote, “Seems as if many, many people are going to be in for quite a shock when they find out that this is all there is. Enjoy it safely!!!”And just how could anyone possibly find out IF this would turn out to be all that there is?Talk about an impossibility, think about it.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ThomasBaum

    Counterww You wrote to CCNL1, “You, however, if you are wrong, have to face God and I wonder what he will say about your lack of faith?”Don’t you think that the “lack of” question would be concerning Love, not faith?As it says, “Faith is a gift that no man should boast”.All of the “faith” in the world will not add up to a hill of beans if one does not have Love.God is Love, a Being of Pure Love, God is NOT a Being of Faith.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ccnl1

    Counterww and Thomas “the god talker and Moses of the NT” Baum,How does the topic involve the spirit state of heaven/hell?Going off-topic, if indeed I meet this god of yours, he will say good job. You used my gifts to go beyond the embellishments and myths of the NT to find the reality of it all.

  • Frigistan

    Sound like our Evangelicals. WASPs only need join. Why you think the whole evangelical thing was started? You have a meglomaniac at the center spouting his personal interpretation of the Bible and they quietly go about their little KKK way.

  • ThomasBaum

    ccnl1 You wrote, “How does the topic involve the spirit state of heaven/hell?”I do not feel as if I have to be constricted by the “box” of “the topic” if the conversation moves to a different level.You mention the “spirit state of heaven/hell” what about “the new heavens and the new earth”, I for one am not going to say exactly what this “new heavens and a new earth” is comprised of but if you notice it doesn’t mention “hell”, does it?You also wrote, “Going off-topic, if indeed I meet this god of yours, he will say good job. You used my gifts to go beyond the embellishments and myths of the NT to find the reality of it all.”What you refer to as “this god of yours” is God of ALL, in as much as He created everything that is except for Himself. What He will say to you is what He will say to you, you’ll find out when the time comes.I guess when you mention the “embellishments and myths”, you may be, at least in part, referring to some of Jesus’s miracles. Some people do get caught up in the miracles and do not see that they are just “signs” pointing to Who Jesus Is.I would imagine that you have seen me write this before but for those that have not: God is not a He, a She or an It, even tho God-Incarnate was a Male, but is a Being of Pure Love and Is a Trinity. I use the male pronoun because it comes in handy.The “reality” of God becoming One of Us is just Part of God’s Plan which God has had since before creation and is unfolding before our very eyes and will come to Fruition.God’s Plan is for ALL to be in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.What do you think the “reality of it all” is?Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.


    To Counterww: The Democratic party – like any other political party – isn’t exactly representative of what Jesus stood for – you’re right. The dems never claimed to be “the party of Jesus” – that claim is belted out over and over and over again by the Repugnicans… However, I will say that if your life is guided by the bible, you know that Democratic party priciples are much more in synch with Jesus’ teachings (the poor, love for all mankind, tolerance, caring, etc.) than the hateful, bigoted, selfish, militaristic, close-minded tendencies that are synonomous with right-wingers…

  • Counterww

    CCNL:I will take that bet.If I am wrong about eternal life, I cease to exist. And I get the benefit of loving others and bringing peace to people’s lives and to my own. You, however, if you are wrong, have to face God and I wonder what he will say about your lack of faith?Chagasman- no political party is perfect and can claim representation for Christ. Democratic party supports infanticide. Jesus WAS intolerant about sin,but he loved sinners with perfect love. Taxing others is not charity, bub, its conscription. And as Paul says, those who don’t work don’t eat. Your opinion about what Pubs has some merit, but in now way is the Democratic party representative of what Jesus stood for.

  • ThomasBaum

    ccnl1You wrote, “Thomas “the god talker and Moses of the NT” Baum,I did not create the world, God did.Also, I did not choose me, God did.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ccnl1

    Thomas “the god talker and Moses of the NT” Baum,Your “reality of it all” can be seen in your self-described salutation above i.e. the “world of Baum”.