Where is the Evidence of God?

By Paula Kirbyconsultant In this week’s On Faith Question, Karen Armstrong asks: “What makes the best ‘case for God’ to … Continued

By Paula Kirby
consultant

In this week’s On Faith Question, Karen Armstrong asks: “What makes the best ‘case for God’ to a skeptic or non-believer, an open-minded seeker, and to a person of faith and Why?”

‘… an open-minded seeker, and to a person of faith …’

It seems to go without saying that a person of faith cannot be open-minded. It is indeed in the very nature of faith that it has to be absolute, and that willingness to doubt religious dogma is inherently sinful. A person of faith must set aside such failings as open-mindedness, the pursuit of evidence, and the rejection of beliefs which cannot be substantiated: faith demands that claims be taken, accepted, defended and propagated on, well, faith, and this closed-mindedness (for what else can we call the refusal to doubt?) is then praised as a virtue, to be eternally rewarded hereafter.

A skeptical non-believer, however, is under no such constraints.

The skeptic merely refuses to accept that for which there is no evidence. The moment evidence is provided, we will be happy to accept it and to change our minds accordingly. This is not the fluffy open-mindedness of the ‘spiritual’, the ‘New Age’, or the ‘seeker’. This is not an open-mindedness that says, ‘I can imagine it, therefore it must be possible’. This is genuine, healthy open-mindedness: a mind that is open, but judiciously so, as opposed to a yawning chasm that has no filter for sifting out the genuine from the phony, the rational from the irrational, the true from the false.

So this is what it would take to convince me that there is a god: evidence. It doesn’t matter what kind: any evidence at all would suffice.

But let us be clear. By ‘evidence’ I do not mean conjecture -‘We are all steeped in Original Sin and stand in need of redemption’ – because we can all conjure up all sorts of stories that others cannot disprove.

I do not mean ignorance – ‘Well, science doesn’t have all the answers’ – because the existence of things we do not yet understand is not evidence for God, as the gods of volcanoes and earthquakes and thunder could attest, if it weren’t for their now-undeniable non-existence. Besides, of course science doesn’t have all the answers: this is what spurs it on to greater and greater endeavors. But if science cannot yet answer a particular question, why should we assume that religion can?

I do not mean wishful thinking – ‘But my faith is such a comfort to me!’- because the comfort you derive from your belief in God no more points to an external reality than does my neighbor’s belief that the arrival of the moon in Scorpio bodes well for her finances.

I do not mean threats – ‘An eternal lake of fire awaits those who do not believe’ – for you cannot make me fear that which you cannot demonstrate the reality of – especially when the self-serving nature of the threat is so patently obvious.

I do not mean presumption – ‘But your life can’t have any meaning or purpose without God’ – since your apparent inability to find purpose or meaning in your own family, friends, career, interests, ability to influence the world for the better, learning, joy, laughter, personal growth, compassion, and awe at the beauties of the world around you in no way reduces my ability to find my life entirely fulfilled and made meaningful by these things.

I do not mean grotesque fear and distrust of your fellow man – ‘Without God there would be nothing to stop us from killing one another’ – since it is perfectly clear that the vast majority of us, believers and non-believers alike, happily comply with society’s rules and feel no urge to murder, rape or steal; and that religious belief has all too often added to the weight of human cruelty rather than militated against it.

I do not mean your subjective feelings – ‘I know in my heart that it’s true!’ – for neuroscience is casting an ever more piercing light on the workings of our brains and revealing our feelings to be hugely unreliable guides to external reality: which is why they always need to be backed up with real, proper, testable evidence before they can be trusted.

I do not mean the rejection of all normal standards of reason and truth-seeking – ‘The Bible must be true because the Bible says it is!’. Whether we are talking about history or science or a court of law, there is a reason why we seek evidence before we reach conclusions. There is a reason why we test that evidence, challenge it, try to find alternative explanations for it. And that reason is that the truth matters. God is not a subjective proposition: either there is a god, or there is not. The standards of assessing the objective truth of a claim apply here every bit as much as they do to every other field of inquiry.

Show me one tangible piece of evidence that there is a god – the kind of evidence that we demand for any other claim – and I will happily assess it with enough open-mindedness to satisfy the most demanding of judges.

But of course, once you have done that, your work will really just be beginning. For then you will have the task of demonstrating beyond reasonable doubt that it is YOUR god you have just provided the evidence for, and not Baal, Mithras, Marduk, Atum, Ptah, Vishvakarman, Unkulunkulu or any of the other thousands of deities available to choose from.

Good luck! Until then, I shall remain a skeptical non-believer. Albeit an open-minded one.

Paula Kirby is a former Christian and a freelance writer, living in the Highlands of Scotland. She is a consultant and project manager, specializing in freethinking and secular organizations.

Paula Kirby
Written by

  • norriehoyt

    No evidence can prove the existence of the Abrahamic [or any other] god, for the reason that any such purported evidence is necessarily possible evidence of many other things, and there is no way to exclude those other things, thus leaving the existence of a “god” as the only remaining possibility.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Well, I wouldn’t throw away Baal just yet, let alone, my own favorite, Marduk. Take a look at Iraq, Afghanistan….Jesus Baal?–one could make a reasonable case for It. All inferential, of course, but still….

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Btw, Paula, good essay.

  • usa-proletariat-movement

    Dear Jo Espo C/O: ANTi.BAD et al:Ye hath Freudiantly Slippeth’d and Pre-Apocalyptically saith,”Questiion: How much of This Theoligical POW-WOW [of Imprted Religions in Amerik, Not MADE in America] was ‘Subsidized’ by OUR tax-Payers money via the OBAMA’s ‘Faith Based Initiative” ??After-All Last Week or two Britisher’s Low-Lifes via “BONO” {Oprah Winfreys & Co, “SECRET” pals] built a Stage as if a Spac-Ship [Ummmm?] and The PLUTOCRATS [Government Run by the Rich/Wealthy] Of Washington, D.C. America; Like Nancy Polosi et al….WHO PAID for THIS [ALL]! The VATican? BOBO? BLAIR? George Town? or did WE [i] The [SIPP] aka Question again: WHERE is the [unconstitutional] $2,000,0000 of Stolen Tax-Payers [un-Godly] money , w/out THE-PEOPLES Consent/Approval/Voter, is going; who?, where, Why…??? Rise-Up! Rise-Up “SIPP”s Time to Take-Back Our Nation, as Promised US!Dear Fellow Americans; To Hell with the Friendly’s! Beacuse the TRUTH (opposite MYTH) Question Mr. OBAMA, Polosi, & CO; POPE & CO. LaLaLa… WHERE is Osama Bin Laden???? You know He is Dead! So Why? Why? Lie to The-People?? SELF Agrandizement?A REVOLUTION; not only a REVELATION is comming!VOTE: Down with THEOCRAY & DOWN with MONARCHY, in America via ENGLAND et all!Get Out of AMERIK England! Get Out! Or WE will Force You Out and Take-Over ALL Your Assets/Investments HERE!Hary! ARise PROLETARIATES: Vote: ENGLISH MONARCH w/THEOCRACY in Cahooch with THEOCRATIC VATICAN’s & CO must be Destroyed or Dulky Stopped Today, not Morrow!O’ APOCALYPTARIAN’s! Beware the Jealous/Evil?Satanic PRE-APOCALYPTARYAN’s!May god cuese the QUEEN! Curse Opra WINFREY & Friends et al!!A NEW BOSTON TEA PARTY is Comming Soon Soon Very Soon!

  • ccnl1

    Other than noting the following and writing critiques of the reviews of Richard Dawkins books, what creditials does Ms. Kirby have????? Degrees?? In what??”You will no doubt have heard the (admittedly not particularly funny) joke about there being two versions of The God Delusion: one of them moderate, reasonable, utterly convincing and only bought by atheists, and the other vicious, aggressive, offensive, and exclusively bought by Christians. It is clear that religion is an emotive issue and that the reader’s beliefs (or lack of them) will strongly colour his or her reaction to any writing on the subject. For this reason I’m going to lay my cards on the table right at the start: I am an atheist, a great fan of Richard Dawkins’ books and an enthusiastic contributor to this website when time allows. “

  • Mortal

    Ms. Kirby,Being fully aware that what constitutes convincing evidence for one person may count as nothing for another… for me, my very existence is evidence enough for a Creator (read: God). My mind simply can not and will not accept the idea that the universe is “just there”. So for myself, the existence of God is Case Closed, and I generally find debates on the subject to be rather pointless. And for all those atheists out there in cyberworld ready to respond with “then where did God come from?”, your question is semantically null – without meaning. The Creator is by definition the Creator, and not a creation.Also, don’t try to argue that the universe was always here, and therefore requires no creation. that idea can be decisively defeated by a simple thought experiment. Thus:1. Imagine a time a billion years in the future. You know that in a billion years from now, that time will be the present. The same works for any finite number you can name. At some point, we’ll get there.2. Now, imagine a point in time an infinite number of years in the future. No matter how long you wait, we’ll NEVER arrive at that point. It will never be the present, but always and forever an infinite time in the future.3. Now go the other direction. Imagine 14 billion years ago (the current rough estimate of the age of the universe, give or take a billion years or so). Starting from that point, we eventually get to where (when?) we are today – the present time.4. Finally, imagine a point in time an infinite number of years in the past. Just as in step 2, we would never, ever get to today. Our present existence becomes an impossibility. It would always be an infinite time in the future, and never arrived at.THEREFORE: The universe (Creation) requires a beginning, before which there was nothing. Creation Ex Nihilo.Sorry for the long post. I tried to make this as concise as possible.

  • ccnl1

    Mortal noted:”THEREFORE: The universe (Creation) requires a beginning, before which there was nothing.”Hmmm, according to many astrophysicists, it appears that the universe recycles in expansion and shrinkage modes aka the Big Bang and the Gib Gnab.

  • Freestinker

    “Being fully aware that what constitutes convincing evidence for one person may count as nothing for another… “———— Gods are just beliefs. So the proof of any god’s existence is found in the faith of a believer. If a believer says they believe in a god, then by definition, their god exists. It’s really one of the simplest proofs in the book and Mortal’s post provides a typical example.

  • bpai_99

    “You cannot disprove the existence of God, you just have to take it on faith.” – Woody Allen

  • ThishowIseeit

    “Imagine there’s no heaven

  • PSolus

    “THEREFORE: The universe (Creation) requires a beginning, before which there was nothing.”Nobody knows what the universe requires.We’re still working on discovering exactly what the universe is.

  • bob2davis

    Thank you, Ms. Kirby, for a rational, clear and concise essay. Sadly, the vast majority of people are opposed to or incapable of, reason, rational ideas and common sense (see poster “mortal”.) Luckily we don’t have to respect inane belief and we don’t have to allow those beliefs to shape governmental or societal policies. The indoctrination of god and religion is extremely strong. Unfortunately, these believers think little about current events, history, science or the arts and so to ask them to question their religious beliefs would be an almost impossible task. And this is what the churches want: subjugation, fear, ignorance, control and money. As we can’t get blood from a rock, we can’t get thoughtful discourse from a jackass. But thank you for your efforts.

  • skipj

    It is a beautiful day outside my window, Ms. Kirby. Prove it!

  • kert1

    (Part II)Let me give a specific example in gravity. We all know about gravity and what it does but the fact is science still doesn’t know what it is. Scientists have been looking for the graviton or some other explanation but it has been elusive. We may or may not find the answer, so should we simply dismiss gravity and ask for proof before we believe in it? I think looking for God is similar. We don’t see God but we do see his creation, his Word (the Bible), and most important, his followers. One can dismiss these things but belief in God does change people. I think as a scientist it makes sense to figure out what is going on with what we can observe, as opposed to dismissing what hasn’t been proven.Second and must shorter, I don’t think she understands that Christians are thinking people. This is quite obvious as one looks around to all the universities founded by denominations around the world. Not to mention the apologetics of many great minds. I would recommend she reads C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity” which answers most of the contentions she writes about in the article. For an expert on these things she seems kind of ignorant of the arguments.She should also understand that there are many that have not “reasoned” out their faith but have proof in the living. This is a relief for those of us without a superior intellect and time to reason everything. I think the greatest proof isn’t reasoning its seeing. Once you’ve seen something it becomes very easy to believe.

  • kert1

    I think I am going to take a different route with this article and not try to answer what the author asks, since it seems a little unfair. I don’t think anyone would find it fair for me to ask for proof that there isn’t a God, so I don’t think the reverse is any better of a challenge.“Show me one tangible piece of evidence that there is a god – the kind of evidence that we demand for any other claim – and I will happily assess it with enough open-mindedness to satisfy the most demanding of judges.”Let me point out what I am saying in the most rational and basic of sciences, math. We all know math involves a lot of rational proofs, but what is the basis for these theorems. It comes down to a few definitions and assumptions that haven’t been proven. They were in essence “made up” since we didn’t something to build the rest on. Now I am not against these concepts; I actually believe they are true although some argue they may not be. My point here is things that are proven are generally based on things that are not proven. At some point you have to have some faith that these foundations are true without proof.Now if you understand science in general, you know we go from the very basic math, up the scale to physics, chemistry, biology, and psychology. The more advanced sciences are based on the simpler ones. As one advances proofs become nearly impossible and there is very little of this in chemistry, biology, and psychology. In fact, these sciences are mostly just observing what happens as we explore an experiment.

  • kare1

    For my mind, reading this paper every day and seeing the hate, anger and selfishness is proof enough that there is no GOD. Only monsters and mortals.How can a country of such FAITH, display such open hatred of others? How can such a country of FAITH, pretend that there are no suffering people in our own backyard and actually make themselves believe that THEY were chosen by a GOD to receive his wealth, while saying tough luck to everyone else.

  • Wallpass

    Paula Kirby ‘is a former Christian’. Sad. What caused you to initially believe and then what caused you to forsake your faith? Those are questions that deserve an answer.

  • Pamsm

    CCNL, Theology has always seemed to me to be a ridiculous field, since it’s based on nothing that is an incontrovertible fact. It’s just layer upon layer of opinions coming from people who were indoctrinated in their youths.

  • Pamsm

    “Now if you understand science in general, you know we go from the very basic math, up the scale to physics, chemistry, biology, and psychology. The more advanced sciences are based on the simpler ones.”No they’re not. Your understanding of science is appallingly, but not surprisingly, limited.

  • Pamsm

    “Paula Kirby ‘is a former Christian’. Sad. What caused you to initially believe and then what caused you to forsake your faith? Those are questions that deserve an answer.”I can’t speak for Ms. Kirby personally, but for most people who have gone through a similar transition, the answer is that they initially believed because they were indoctrinated by authority figures at a young and impressionable age (this gullible age is hard-wired by evolution, because little cave kids who didn’t listen to their elders, walked off cliffs, or approached the pretty, furry bear, and didn’t grow up to reproduce). Those who later become atheists have a natural streak of skepticism that makes them question things, and are able to break through the brainwashing and separate the wheat from the chaff.

  • Pamsm

    “I don’t think anyone would find it fair for me to ask for proof that there isn’t a God”That’s because you can’t prove a negative, Kert. Prove there are no unicorns. When one is asserting a positive, however (i.e., “There is a god, and he’s the God of the bible.”), the burden of proof lies with the one making the assertion. I haven’t seen a shred of that yet.

  • JM16

    DNAI wouldn’t believe that a computer whose parts were randomly distributed in a room could, as a result of a big bang, fashion itself into a computer with functioning circuitry, a motherboard, a network, etc.–even over time.Faith is, by definition, believing/hoping in the unknown–doubts and all. None of us will know until we know…

  • JM16

    Well said, Kare1. That is the $6 million question: how can people who purport to be Christians be so hateful, ignorant, malicious, egotistical, (racist) and self-centered? I have asked the same thing over the past few years as I watch/listen in growing disgust to the rantings of the “religious” right. I’m a Christian, but count me a follower of Christ, not these whack jobs.

  • georgieporgie2

    I don’t think God is terribly concerned about Ms. Kirby. But, she is terribly concerned about him. Totally consumed.But, she did prove she is an idiot. No further evidence required.

  • paulc2

    Paula Kirby, when you write ” It seems to go without saying that a person of faith cannot be open-minded”, it betrays your bias against those that are religious. Do you not realize that many men of science and reason have been religious, including Pascal, Aquanis, and Thomas Mendel. What convinced you that reason is opposed to faith. If Faith is real, it must be consisent with science and reason. This is the Catholic position.As for proof of God, it is all around you. Do you not realize the order inherent in the universe. Everything is made of the same subatomic particles, nature follows universal constants, Everything follows the same physical laws. Where there are laws, there must be a lawgiver. Where there is order, there must be something to create and maintain the order. When you are talking about making laws and creating order on a universal scale, you need a being of infinite power and intellect (i.e., God)

  • Mnnngj

    //It is indeed in the very nature of faith that it has to be absolute, and that willingness to doubt religious dogma is inherently sinful.//Paula, you mention the mind quite a bit. Some of your quotes “and to change our minds accordingly…a mind that is open, but judiciously so” and so on.To Realize God one has to go beyond the mind. The mind, in Hindu or Advaita Vedanta lore is like a monkey, it jumps from thought to thought like a monkey jumps from branch to branch in a tree.Buddhist Sutras (writings) constantly discuss the problem of the mind,dropping the mind, mindlessness, thoughtlessness, that Bliss beyond thought.I know you were a Christian and are writing from that limited point of view, but the Realizers of God become Radiant in an undeniable Blissfullness, a Happiness beyond reason. I have sat with a number of them and can attest to this.Most Realizers have come from India – Christianity is poorer in producing these Transcendent beings. One of these I love is from the Eastern Orthodox Church, Saint Seraphim of Sarov. Once a student looked at his face and saw Radiant Light eminating as Love from him. This is God but it must be realized. It is a feeling, not a thought, but rather a thoughtless feeling. First drop the mind and then drop the body and the Bliss of Being (aka God, Vishnu, Allah, Mithra, Ra etc.) is Revealed. Its a Revelation and if you want fo know God you are going to have to unfortunately submit yourself for a lifetime of understanding.

  • cornbread_r2

    paulc2: “As for proof of God, it is all around you. Do you not realize the order inherent in the universe.”Cornbread: When one lives on a cushy little planet in a benign part of a fairly stable galaxy where the sun rises (sic) every 24 hours and Christmas comes around every year — just like clockwork — it’s easy to see *apparent* order. Get back to us on this inherent order business after the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies collide.paulc2: “Everything is made of the same subatomic particles, nature follows universal constants, Everything follows the same physical laws.”Cornbread: Particles at the quantum level laugh in the face of Newtonian physics. paulc2: “Where there are laws, there must be a lawgiver. Where there is order, there must be something to create and maintain the order. When you are talking about making laws and creating order on a universal scale, you need a being of infinite power and intellect (i.e., God)”Cornbread: The *appearance* of order requires nothing except an indifferent, naturally evolving universe and sloppy observation. If one wants to argue that God operates outside time and space on a supernatural level then fine, but if you want to claim that God personally supervises everything from the innards of black holes to the mass production of snowflakes then it seems only fitting that you offer some explanation of the mechanism by which God accomplishes all this in a natural universe. Without it, all you have is a warm, fuzzy feeling and that isn’t “proof”.

  • katavo

    I’d really like to understand how the believers in one set of gods can look upon the believers of another set of gods and be as atheistic about those other gods as we atheists are about all the gods.And not atheistic about their own. I’d very much like to thank colinnicholas for the huge list of other available gods.So tell us, local christians, how is it that you can see how false these other gods are, how obviously invented by humanity they are, how logically fallacious they are … and not see the same thing about your gods?What special mental trick are you using, because I just don’t get it. They all seem equally ridiculous to me, including yours.

  • battleground51

    Many people cannot feel any Godly presence at all. They are sterile to any thought of a supernatural being. They are constantly wondering what makes religious people tick.Religious folks believe those people are empty shells. Born without a soul. Kind of a handicap which rarely finds a cure.Scientific types say they are born without a God gene. Very similar explanation.Science is amazing but the most intelligent scientists will admit that what they know doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. What they don’t know fills the universe.I’m humble enough to believe there is more than what we can sense. And I have felt the God presense all my life.It gives life more meaning.But to those who have no God gene…..don’t worry about it. In a few years it won’t matter to anyone.

  • katavo

    “Religious folks believe those people are empty shells. Born without a soul. Kind of a handicap which rarely finds a cure.”I feel far from empty. In fact I feel quite surprised when I hear these kinds of things said by religious people. Life is given more meaning … even if by a delusion?How many of the gods in the list provided by colinnicholas had proponents who claimed the same sense of presence you claim?This “meaning” is more important than reality apparently, I can’t seem to find another way to explain that to myself. However, I don’t claim this meaning is false, as you religious types claim any meaning outside your experience to be false.I just claim it is based on a delusion. Many delusions in fact.If you didn’t have this meaning provided by your delusion, would you perhaps have searched for meaning elsewhere? Could it be an empty calorie … I think so.

  • battleground51

    To true atheists, Christians seem like bothersome pests and they are! People born without that “God gene” will never see God in any manner or form. Saving them is a hopeless endeavor.There are people who have suppressed their “God gene” for one reason or another. Those are the ones Christians are looking for. Sometimes they can be saved. It has happened to some of the most hardened souls on the planet. It’s a beautiful thing.It’s almost impossible to tell the difference between TOTAL lack of God in a person and one who has a little God in them. That’s why Christians get a bad rap. They try to save everyone.

  • tojby_2000

    A poster offered this common refrain: “I don’t think anyone would find it fair for me to ask for proof that there isn’t a God” _______________________________________________1. It is not fair. Metaphysical negatives can not be proven.

  • katavo

    The burning conviction that we have a holy duty toward others is often a way of attaching our drowning selves to a passing raft. What looks like giving a hand is often a holding on for dear life. Take away our holy duties and you leave our lives puny and meaningless. There is no doubt that in exchanging a self-centered for a selfless life we gain enormously in self-esteem. The vanity of the selfless, even those who practice utmost humility, is boundless.” — Eric HofferI can’t help but think of the above quote from Eric Hoffer when I hear Christians claim they want to save me, or any other non- or wrong-believer.And to find meaning in what is very likely a personal and mass delusion .. this all sort of fits together.

  • ThomasBaum

    ccnl1You wrote, “Hmmm, according to many astrophysicists, it appears that the universe recycles in expansion and shrinkage modes aka the Big Bang and the Gib Gnab.”Sounds to me that you are inferring that this is a “theory” that is being presented by “some” astrophysicists, percentage unknown, and if you think about it, it sounds like the universe, in their opinion is “breathing” in and out, doesn’t it?Have you actually thought about what they have proposed and have you ever wondered if there may have been a “time” when the “breathing” started?Lots of theories out there, isn’t there?Time itself is a creation of God and time will not end but the night of the sixth day will arrive but the dawning of the seventh day will surely come and with it the new heavens and the new earth, God’s Kingdom.See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ThomasBaum

    PSolus You wrote, “We’re still working on discovering exactly what the universe is.”Seems as if nothing else the universe or what we know of it is rather amazing, to put it mildly, don’t you think?Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ThomasBaum

    Pamsm You wrote, “(i.e., “There is a god, and he’s the God of the bible.”), the burden of proof lies with the one making the assertion. I haven’t seen a shred of that yet.”I have made not only the assertion that God Is but also that I have met God.I have also stated that I can not prove that assertion but that God Will.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ThomasBaum

    battleground51You wrote, “Religious folks believe those people are empty shells. Born without a soul. Kind of a handicap which rarely finds a cure.”First off, this is a blanket stereotype of “religious folks” in that they ALL “believe” what you say they “believe”.I have met God and I would not call myself particularly “religious” or “spiritual” whatever these terms may mean, but I am a messenger.It does strike me as rather sad that some people that take everything in the bible totally “literal” most conviently throw out something such as, “We are ALL made in the Image and Likeness of God”.If they throw this out, they may as well throw the rest of the bible away considering the fact that if any one thinks that only some are made in God’s Image and they just happen to be one of the “some” then they would most likely come up with the “absolute garbage” that “some” come up with and spew out “supposedly” in the Name of God.The thing is if any one of us is made in God’s Image than that means that ALL of us are made in God’s Image considering the FACT that satan made no one.Also since Jesus is God-Incarnate which means that Jesus being God was also made in God’s Image, this happened in time when Mary said YES and Jesus was conceived, which makes Jesus the Brother of All Humanity.I find it really sad that some “Christians” seem to think that the whole “purpose” of Christianity is for some to pick up their “get out of hell” card.Christianity is part of God’s Plan, the Incarnation of God (God becoming One of us) is part of God’s Plan, the Jews being the “Chosen People” (chosen and formed by God) is part of God’s Plan, God has had His Plan since before creation and God’s Plan, the mysterious Plan of God as it is referred to, Will come to Fruition.See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ThomasBaum

    battleground51 You wrote, “It’s almost impossible to tell the difference between TOTAL lack of God in a person and one who has a little God in them. That’s why Christians get a bad rap. They try to save everyone.”Are you the Saviour, am I the Saviour, are Christians the Saviour or is Jesus the Saviour?Are we to “Proclaim the Gospel” and considering that Gospel means Good News then to “Proclaim the Good News” or to ‘proclaim the good-enough news’?Do you realize that Jesus experienced ALL OF HELL when He took upon Himself the sin and the sins of ALL OF HUMANITY?When Jesus cried out: “My God, My God why have Thou forsaken Me?”, do you think that this psalm was being fufilled or that Jesus thought it was a good time to say it???When Jesus said, “Father forgive them…”, there is no asterick, there is no “except for”, do you think He meant exactly what He said?When Jesus said, “It Is Finished”, do you know that this means “PAID IN FULL”?Jesus won the “keys” to the netherworld, hell and spiritual death, and will use them in due time, God’s Time.As I have said many times: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • Athena4

    COLINNICHOLAS – you summoned me? Actually, you have a very good point. In Paleolithic times, humans explained things that they didn’t understand by saying that it was a deity or spirit that was responsible. Why does the moon wax and wane? A monster takes a bite out of it every day, then regurgitates it. Why does the sun rise and set? It’s the wheels of a giant chariot going across the sky. Had a good hunt? The shaman was able to summon lots of buffalo to our hunting grounds. Of course, we know better now. But the thought-forms of God or Gods still remain in our collective consciousness. To me, there is no difference between science and faith. Of course, I’m a Pagan. I can look at a place of great natural beauty, like the Great Barrier Reef, Yosemite Valley or the Grand Canyon, and know the science of how it was formed, and still be in awe of it. To me, that is the proof of the Divine – that beauty exists in the natural world all on its own.