The murderer at Fort Hood

I’m writing from Toronto, where last night I gave a plenary address on Muslim-Jewish cooperation to the Biennial conference of … Continued

I’m writing from Toronto, where last night I gave a plenary address on Muslim-Jewish cooperation to the Biennial conference of the Union for Reform Judaism. Backstage after the address, my friend Rabbi David Saperstein gave me a grim look and said, “The shooter had a Muslim name.”

He called his wife who works for NPR, and his face got more grim as I heard him say:

“Are you sure he was a Muslim? Are you sure he was a Muslim?”

He hung up the phone and turned to me. “This is our worst nightmare.”

Rabbi Saperstein knows there will be a thousand voices broadcasting the news that a Muslim opened fire at Fort Hood in Texas yesterday – the implication being, of course, that this act represents Islam. He knows how distorting that perception is for Muslims, and how dangerous that distortion is for America.

Last night, I told the two thousand Jews in the audience at the Biennial about my friendships with Jews throughout my life. I told them about the Muslim theology of interfaith cooperation, from the story of God giving Adam the knowledge of the world’s diversity, to the Sura which says that God made people in different nations and tribes so we could come to know one another, to how Prophet Muhammad was sent to earth to be a mercy upon all the worlds.

I spoke of how the central theme of the 21st century will be the faith line, and the vital importance of getting the definition of the faith line right – that it does not separate Jews from Muslims, or Christians from Hindus. It separates those who believe in pluralism from extremists.

You won’t see my speech on the evening news, though I believe that it was a far more accurate reflection of the tradition of Islam than the story that you saw looped on every channel, and headlined in print this morning.

Muslim groups jumped to condemn last night’s actions. The All Dulles Area Muslim Society (ADAMS) sent out a release immediately after the shooting, stating “Islam holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin. ADAMS states clearly that those who commit acts murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent.” The Islamic society of North America (ISNA), and the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) expressed similar statements.

Of course these condemnations are important. What is even more important is to state clearly what Islam stands for. In Islam, as in other faiths, it is said that to take a single life is like taking all life. In Islam, mercy is a deeply cherished value – the most senior Muslim scholar in the West says it is actually the central value of the tradition.

As Rabbi Saperstein – and you and I – know, there are a thousand voices saying a Muslim committed this heinous act.

But a Muslim did not do this. Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label. The man who killed a group of brave American soldiers deserves one name and one name only: murderer.

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  • gagalbert

    Give me a break. We have a guy that was chastised and dismissed from Walter Reed for trying to sell Jihad to folks there, a guy that openly supports suicide bombers, a guy that planned his jihad rampage by giving away korans and his furniture and a guy that yell Alah Akbar as he murders the infidels and y’all want to show your supposed intellectualism by doubting why he did this. Please he was on an Islamist Jihad, stop trying to make it more complicated. This is what a significant percentage of muslims believe is correct as evidenced by the Arabs in Judea and Samaria handing out candies and celebrating on September 11th 2001. Wake up and stop trying to obfuscate.

  • zippyspeed

    The shooter was screaming “Allahu Akbar”. He has a long history of militant Islamic internet postings.It’s not subtle.But then again, with the Post it doesn’t need to be. This guy could have kept screaming “I’m doing this because my Islamic faith tells me to and you’re all worthless unbelievers that are my ticket to paradise” while using a rocket launcher that shoots exploding Korans, and the writers hereabouts would still find a way to talk around it. By the same token Timothy McVeigh, whose nominal Christianity was entirely unrelated to his anti-government paranoia, is nonetheless held up as a “Christian terrorist” in some sort of sick scales-balancing rationalization. Funny, I don’t remember him screaming “Jesus is great” the whole time.

  • Rameses

    FYI: Muslim convicted Beltway sniper John Muhammad is scheduled to be executed next week. FYI: Muslim US soldier Hasan Abujihaad was convicted last year on espionage and material terrorism support charges after serving aboard the USS Benfold and sharing classified info with al Qaeda financiers, including movements of US ships just six months after al Qaeda operatives had killed 17 Americans aboard the USS Cole in the port of Yemen.And the list goes on and on…

  • martiniano

    Deny, deny, deny. Every time a Muslim kills innocent people it is said “they are not Muslim”. They are Muslim. Islam is fatal damaged by the belief in pre-destination. Any Muslim can commit any act and justify it as the will of God.Any non-Muslim would have simply resigned his commission. Leave it to a Muslim to murder innocent people and then have it whitewashed by fellow Muslims.I hate you.

  • martiniano

    “Muslim groups jumped to condemn last night’s actions.”Yes, they always condemn after the fact. But is there one single documented case of a Muslim being turned in by fellow Muslims before the act? A single one?Pre-destination allows you to blame all bad actions on Allah or Shaitan. But once again, in the long and ever growing chain of murderous events committed by Muslims, there is only denial and obfuscation. Show us with your actions, Muslims. Turn in the murderers among you. Turn in your brother, your father or your cousin who plans to kill.Then we, the 300,000,000 non-Muslim Americans may start to take you seriously. Until then:I hate you.

  • martiniano

    “Allahu Akbar” is Arabic for “Kill Innocents”.

  • martiniano

    “But a Muslim did not do this. Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label. The man who killed a group of brave American soldiers deserves one name and one name only: murderer.”Until you and the entire Ummah face the truth that your religion accepts and encourages murder then you will continue to be hated by non-Muslims. This murderer is a Muslim. Face it. Say it. Admit it. He is a Muslim and Muslims can easily justify murder of non-Muslims. And, as you have shown, if it is convenient to you then you can always just say “they are not Muslim”. Even when they are.

  • Sajanas

    About 3 years ago, a naturalized Iranian drove an SUV through the UNC campus, attempting to run down and kill as many as he could. Fortunately, he only injured 9 people, and turn himself in afterward, siting his Islamic faith and desire to imitate one of the 911 passengers.I’m sure that you would also consider him to be “not a Muslim”, because his actions do not fit what you accept to be “a Muslim”. It seems like many times I have read various Muslim apologists treat their religion as a sort of value set, which once you violate, you are no longer a Muslim anymore. But I personally feel that you suddenly cease to be a member of this religion when you are able to bend it to do something horrible. Especially if you are doing it *because* of a religiously founded set of beliefs. And while the current case of the Texas army shooting has yet to be determined one way or another (I can easily see the difficulties of being Islamic in the American army putting one to the breaking point)… I think you do your religion a disservice by immediately disowning the actions of co-religionists, without reflection on how their interpretations of the Koran and Islam lead them to this. It seems a little too easy, a little too trite.

  • gm123

    “”Allahu Akbar” is Arabic for “Kill Innocents”. “Wow. You DO know that it isn’t, right? Or are you just being deliberately ignorant?

  • johng1

    All religions are based on crazy beliefs. Islam, to me, seems to harbor the most dangerous tenets in today’s world. I hope someday that all irrational beliefs in some all knowing fairy in the sky are tossed aside and we move forward as a civilization. Come on now, this is the 21 century!

  • johng1

    No, Allahu Akbar means “hold the anchovies!”

  • blomette

    I understand what you are saying…there are Nutcases in all religious groups; and therefore we should not blame this man’s religion. We do not know what was in his mind–HE MAY be using his religion as an excuse for what he did. It’s very sad that he couldn’t find another way to leave the Army which was peaceful.

  • rickco

    the previous 5 or 10 rampage murderers here in the US, notably in VA Tech, Cólumbine, and others, were carried out by Christians, or at least people raised in a predominantly Christian culture and environment. However, no one seemed to notice that or damn them from belonging to a religion that condemns mass murder. It’s easy to use to Bible to justify the murder of non Christians and that has been done countless times throught history, up to the present. Case in point, the atom bomb, dropped on the Japanese (granted that unfortunately to some, they are not Muslim either), would never have been dropped on a Christian population, would it? Some posters of this thread would probably not be moved if the situation was reversed, except to celebrate it. So cut the crap about laying it all on Islam’s door. A masaccre has been committed and that’s tragic enough. BTW, I’m Christian.

  • johng1

    Rickcko, I find Christians as objectionable as Muslims, if that makes you feel better. They are both so wrong and waste their lives because of silly beliefs. I just find some tenets of Islam more troubling. But it is true, the Christians were real mutha f’s through history.

  • pgould1

    I’ll give you a few more words to better describe the Ft. Hood perpetrator: Traitor and committed Islamo fascist.

  • Matthew_DC

    Question for johng1: What groups were not real “mf’s” throughout history? This planet is teeming with violent people. They can be found in every group.

  • johng1

    I agree Matthew. However, killing in the name of some god is just crazy. All mainstream religions have condoned it, at one time or another. Usually, there is some underlying reason, like acquiring something that is not yours from someone else. Same thing going on here. Idiots who are easily influenced are controlled by sheiks and mullahs to keep them ignorant and under their control. At the same time, those in control spread violence using these pawns for their own needs. Religion is a great cover and keeps the perpetrators hidden!We need to divorce ourselves from them. We can bring them to the table now and again, but if they pull this sht again, we ignore until the next deal. Sooner or later these cultures will respect us because money rules. Business rules. Business must be purified from the leaches!

  • johng1

    I forgot to add that of course we are one of the groups taking something for someone else. We want and need their oil. They have control. They utilize their control. We need to make oil a less valuable commodity. We can break them with our ingenuity and willfulness to pursue science. This comes with a price tag that the average American is not willing to accept. Hell, many here are still arguing that man is not affecting the planet in adverse ways using fossil fuels.

  • rlj1

    The question should be why are soilders at Ft. Hood killing each other. November 2009; July 2009; September-October 2008; etc.

  • jacktdaw2002

    Listen up: “Islam is a religion of peace. No Muslim could have done this. And if he was Muslim, he is no longer one.”That about says it does it not? It’s getting more and more like the movie ‘Telefon’ with Charles Bronson. These people all seem normal until a switch goes off and they wreak havoc.It’s the war this generation must fight.

  • ZZim

    This event has no deep meaning. An antisocial loner went off the deep end and killed some innocent bystanders. No different from the guy in the Holocaust Museum, except that he was more successful at it.People with certain mental disorders tend to be attracted to ideologies that make them feel grandiose and powerful. So instead of perceiving himself for what he really was – a stupid destructive selfish loser – he imagined himself a heroic shining martyr to a grand cause, cut down in battle while defending his people against their natural enemies.What a loser. Just like the other guy.Special note to Martiniano, who said this: “Yes, they always condemn after the fact. But is there one single documented case of a Muslim being turned in by fellow Muslims before the act? A single one?”The Muslim-American community has performed a key positive role in the war on terror. They have organized, reported, reformed, counseled and fought the good fight against poisonous religious ideology from overseas. Martiniano, you are flat-out wrong. You owe America’s Muslim-Americans an apology.

  • Revcain777

    The reality is Muslims in the Arab world are dancing in the streets over this.

  • thetrekrockstar

    ZZIM, I competely disagree with this concept of ‘loser’ that you are pressing on this guy.You’re just trying to prop yourself up, and that’s naturally human.However, I don’t see this guy as loser at all or anyone for that instance. This guy got degrees in pretty sophiscated subjects so you can’t just dimiss this guy as a nut(Even he didn’t have degrees, I would not call him loser). The reason he did what he did was a combination of factors such as discrimination, opposition to the Iraq War and a duitiful williness to betray his country for his insurgent breathen. There is always a reason. Never call someone a nut, that’s too simple. So someone who is anti-social is a bad person. Ridcalous assumptions!

  • sjcsando

    Another reason why TODAY the Judeo-abe-ISLAMIC-Ummah & their “AL TAQIYAH”?ists should ask themselves, “WHY does the World Suddenly Hate-Us [Islam/Muslum AL TAQIYAHists] and not the Judeo-abe-[Zionist?]Jews anymore?”Posted by: for-runner | November 6, 2009 12:55 PM ———————————-For-runner, exactly what is your d*mn problem??? Most of us here are trying to have a civilized discussion, even though we may have opposing views. Nobody needs your anti-Muslim verbal diarrhea spewing all over this blog. Heck, you sound more radical than Hasan allegedly did.

  • agapn9

    Jesus said “Love your enemies”. Jesus said “Pray for your enemies”. Jesus said “Love your neighbor as yourself”. Jesus said, “Love the Lord thy God with hy whole heart, thy whole soul, and thy whole being without reserve”.Where in the Koran does it say the same?

  • JA20814

    “But a Muslim did not do this.”Right, Eboo. And by that idiocy, Muslims weren’t responsible for 9/11 either. What were the hijackers shouting again? Oh, that’s right…. Allahu Akbar.

  • pofinpa

    enough of the philosophical BS about this fanatical nuts religion reasons for murdering innocent people. any religion that does not come out to condemn and apologize for an action such as this condones it

  • nestor21

    “Case in point, the atom bomb, dropped on the Japanese […] would never have been dropped on a Christian population, would it?”Yeah, we only used firebombs on them. “The bombs killed as many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki by the end of 1945.” “Operation Gomorrah caused at least 50,000 deaths, mostly civilians, and left over a million other German civilians homeless.”

  • johng1

    One thing the Muslims continue to do in this day is treat women like subhumans or otherwise render them subservient to men. I used to see that every Friday when I lived on California St. here back in the 80’s. They would walk well behind the men and wear the strangest garments to hide their faces. I believe women still are not allowed in the Mosque.

  • shrink2

    “This is our worst nightmare.” Eboo, you got that right, the rest, not so much.

  • steveboyington

    Wow. There are lots and lots of truly damaged people in this world. Some become murderers. More, apparently, just post xenophobic diatribes on WaPo threads. How do these zealots survive? Surely their crazed nature must stick out in society and prevent them from leading normal lives?

  • highkey11

    GOOD PRESS RELEASE Nancy …- We search old ladies getting on planes although it is only Muslims that blow themselves up on planes … PC is killing usThe guy asks the drunk what is doing ..- Searching for my car keysSo we check everybody because Muslims are the only bombers and illegals can’t be from Mexico … wasting money faster than Barney Frank at Gay strip clubDEMOCRATS always have the best drugs

  • pete_zipk

    Mr. Patel, instead of preaching us how peaceful your religion is, how about preaching your preachers to stop spreading hate. How about preaching this for a change “All are children of god!”. Sure, there are nutcases in every religion. But that percentage is extremely high in Islam for my comfort. Did you ever wonder why? As long as god talks to us through the religious books, we are doomed!

  • agapn9

    Here are some selections from the Koran:Ibrahim means Abraham, the father of Issac.And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.Here we learn Abraham was not a Jew. And tha Jews and Christians are polytheists.Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.Christians and Jews should be shunded and are unjust.O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.Because the Jews call Uzair a hero that makes them polytheists then he curses Jews and Christians.And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!Choice words of wisdom. I suspose Mohammad wasn’t a true Muslim either?

  • johng1

    Maybe Hassan wanted a woman like the jihadists would likely have, but he couldn’t find a good Muslim-American girl that would submit to his strict old world order. He must have been very frustrated and horny.

  • Ronaldho

    Perhaps you can tell your Jewish friend how he would be treated in a Muslim majority nation/society. The Muslim terrorists from Pakistan went looking for Jews in Mumbai, India to massacre them and drive them out last year in November. And needless there are no Jews in most of Islamic nations and if there are they have no freedom of religion.

  • yasseryousufi

    Get over it~! So a guy snapped because he was unhappy with his job and took it out on his colleagues. Its happens dozens of times in America every year. Why dont you investigate the religous affiliations of the NRA people as vigorously. The guy lost it. it happens to dozens of americans everyday who take the lives of their colleagues alongwith them.

  • slowroller

    No one can dispute the alarming rise of islamic fanaticism around the world.No one can dispute the fact that the impulse to support fanaticism, terrorism, and murder is becoming mainstream in much of the world’s muslim community.The simple fact is, islam and democratic values cannot coexist in peace. One or the other is going to get flushed down the toilet of history in the struggle that is to come, and it does not appear that the West has the will to win this fight.

  • johng1

    Slowroller, my toilet of history is backed up. Do you know a good transcendental plumber? The only way the West will “win this fight” is to marginalize them. The more irrelevant they are to us, they more they ignore US. A good start would be t get the hell out of their countries and stop buying oil from them.

  • KingAlbert

    Mr. Patel, why do you think that bald faced lying to the readers of the Post is somehow useful? According to the Post’s own articles Mr. Hasan has been a Muslim his whole life. You don’t stop being a Muslim the minute you do something Mr. Patel disapproves of, I don’t recall you being given that religious authority. He might be a bad Muslim, a sinner, but he’s still a Muslim.When Catholic Priest’s got caught abusing kids, the Post did not instantaneously declare them “non-Christians” or “non-Catholics”. Why the double standard? It couldn’t be that you’re being *gasp* PC could it? Could it be that the Post really doesn’t give a fig about reporting honestly to their readers but is only interesting in propagandizing them? You apparently can’t report the facts anymore, the ignorant masses might misunderstand.

  • KJR1

    I appreciate the Muslim community condemning Hasan’s actions. Any truly viable “religion” would not take root if it were soely based on the extremist views this murdrer had been taught. Killing your neighbor, much less your brother in arms, goes against “normal” social mores. We would not be the successful social animals we are if we all acted this way. All “legitamte” belief systems understand this and have built into their dogams ways to teach brotherly love and mercy to their progeny. I belive Islam to be one of the greatest among those. BUT…

  • MrDC3

    I wonder how many Americians are worried that the Muslums around them may suddenly snap and “go Jihad”.

  • johng1

    No one is going to change Islam. They are going to fade away or take over the globe. Fighting them will do nothing but breed more of them. Let them have their chophead squares and sharia law. That is their culture, not ours. Let us get away from them in every way possible.

  • Marks1153

    It is certainly true that all decent people understand that the killer did not represent true Islam. We should be grateful that our opinion-makers are going to great lengths to make this point. At the same time, one cannot helpbut wonder what the reaction would have been if the disturbed killer had, instead, been a self-professed Christian. Can you imagine the outrage that we would be hearing from all quarters in the anti-Christian media? Without a doubt, the chorus would have been led from the White House! Instead, we have a President who was willing to makelight of the crime and essentialy spit in the face of the families of those who were lost. What a shame!

  • yasseryousufi

    “And needless there are no Jews in most of Islamic nations and if there are they have no freedom of religion.”Ronaldo, your name sounds Iberian to me. Go read some history dude. Where did the Jews seeked and found refuge when they were massacared and evicted from Spain. They were taken in by Muslim countries where they lived peacefully. Many still do. In Yemen, Iran, Tunisia, Egypt, Morroco, Turkey etc there is a sizable population of Jews. Israel has tried to lure the Iranian Jewry to giveup their Iranian citizenship but they are happy to live in Iran. They even have a seat reserved for them in the Parliament. I guess idiots like you can benefit a great deal from modern wonders like Google and Yahoo if only you have the common sense to do a bit of research before you type.

  • shewholives

    Many of you are asking that Muslims take responsibility for the extremists among them. But the Muslim culture teaches otherwise, particularly when you have generations after generations being taught to blame Israel and the Jews for all their unhappiness. This diverts attention from the real culprits, their dysfunctional governments, violence among power hungry tribes, and a violent religion in desperate need of reformation.

  • SwissRoots

    Unfortunately religion is interpreted subjectively to its followers. That’s when you get the radical extremists in any religion. I think Bill Maher has it right. But aside from that, this guy was an evil coward who happened to be Muslim. It could’ve been an evil Catholic coward just as well. But if he was a white American Catholic do you think the media would be discussing his Catholic background. Probably not.

  • scruffy1

    People naturally want to know “why” killing spress like this happen. But motive is a tricky thing with mass murderers. They are often psychopathic. They get a thrill out of wielding power of those they consider inferior to them. Others are delusional, suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Still others are out for revenge or justice (as they perceive it). Few have killed out of religious fervor.If this man was a Christian, the media wouldn’t be describing him as “A Christian American.” Christian groups wouldn’t feel the need to decry his actions. No one would expect them to. Similarly, if the Columbine killers were into Enya and Super Mario Brothers instead of KMFDM and Doom, the media wouldn’t have put much stock into the “pop culture” theory. We all tend to grasp at the obvious straws in the aftermath of tragedies in an attempt to get some kind of closure. We need someone to blame. Often blaming the killer isn’t enough. We have to know what made them do it, and attack that.I understand that urge, but we must fight it. To try and explain away insane behaviour with some mundane external forces like music, or video games, or even faith, is foolish, even if it does offer some kind of comfort and closure.People are a little more complex than that. Trying to boil them down to “A Muslim” is just as stupid as trying to boil them down to “A Marylin Manson fan.”

  • yasseryousufi

    How do we know he was motivated by Islam and not Hollywood~!

  • pete_zipk

    YASSERYOUSUFI: “How do we know he was motivated by Islam and not Hollywood~!”He shouted “ALLA AKABAR”. Had he shouted “VIVA START WARS”, I would agree with you.

  • MrSmith2

    Mr Patel – religious texts are subject to interpretation. Mr Hasan’s and Mr bin Laden’s and … interpretation of islamic texts are different from yours. What is tragic is it appears that islamic texts can justify both Mr Hasan’s interpretation as well as yours. What a sad religion!

  • yasseryousufi

    “He shouted “ALLA AKABAR”. Had he shouted “VIVA START WARS”, I would agree with you.”This lie sounds like its from the same people who gave us the fake videos of Palestinians handing out sweets after 9/11, aka Jews~!

  • egalois

    This is from the latest article in the New York Times:But already the shooting has been glorified on at least one Jihadist Web site. A nearly four-minute video displayed media clips of the aftermath of the shooting, and declared that Maj. Hasan “did Jihad in that base and killed no less than 13 Crusader foreigners” and “put terror and chaos in the ranks of the enemy.”

  • ZZim

    Posted by: thetrekrockstar This guy is a complete and utter loser.

  • Athena4

    The guy that went postal in Orlando today has the last name of Rodriguez. So, I guess some folks are going to be calling for a “jihad” against Hispanics now because of this? Paging Lou Dobbs…

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    eboo patel said,well…that depends…on what motivated their killing. osama bin laden “deserves” the label of “religious killer”. hassan may or may not. we’ll see when more of the story comes out. for now, it’s largely just a coincidence he’s muslim.coloradodog said,THAT’S interesting and may become relevant. we’ll see. he was about to be deployed.

  • tyty1

    Two points-As to the military – while I understand why the military can’t just discharge anyone who changes his or her mind about the commitment to serve when things get tough, why would they want to hang on to someone so clearly troubled and who had supposedly received unsatisfactory job evaluations? It seems to me the military services have yet to adequately address the enormous stress that these wars are placing on our servicemen and women. Apparently, even those just treating our returning soldiers are not immune from the effects of war.

  • JunaidAfeef

    I think Navin1 misunderstand Dr. Patel’s last line. I did not read it as suggesting that Nidal Hasan is not a Muslim. His faith is between him and God and as far as we know, Hasan is a Muslim from the information from his family and so forth.Dr. Patel is saying that faith, any faith, should not be sullied by using it to justify or explain or otherwise qualify this heinous crime. I’m with Dr. Patel on this point.As for ColoradoDog – plenty of American Muslims have condemned Hasan’s murderous shooting spree. As to his other, generally anti-religious sentiments, I respectfully disagree with his tone and content.Sincerely,

  • PanhandleWilly

    Eboo Patel…we would feel more sympathy for your argument if every one of these loons didn’t reference their faith before pulling the trigger or hitting the detonate button. But time after time the actors shout Allah Akbar as they’re killing leaving us to rationally conclude that the attacker is speaking for Islam and believes he is acting in accordance with Moslem beliefs about martyrdom. Frankly your fervent defense of Islam as a peaceful religion is now starting to sound like a snake oil sales pitch to the ‘chumps’ who want to believe it’s true so you can take advantage of them again and again and again. I don’t believe you. I am now convinced that Islam is only a religion of peace if you are a Moslem. If you are not, then at best Islam considers you an animal or a slave and at worst Islam commands moslems to kill you because you are an infidel. You should all leave America. You should return to the Magrheb.

  • Garak

    I’m sure Bernie Madoff being a Jew had nothing to do with it…

  • JunaidAfeef

    I think Navin1 misunderstand Dr. Patel’s last line. I did not read it as suggesting that Nidal Hasan is not a Muslim. His faith is between him and God and as far as we know, Hasan is a Muslim from the information from his family and so forth.Dr. Patel is saying that faith, any faith, should not be sullied by using it to justify or explain or otherwise qualify this heinous crime. I’m with Dr. Patel on this point.As for ColoradoDog – plenty of American Muslims have condemned Hasan’s murderous shooting spree. As to his other, generally anti-religious sentiments, I respectfully disagree with his tone and content.Sincerely,

  • rentianxiang

    yasseryousufi:I think you need to read some history “dude.” Muslim treatment towards Jews (and Christians) throughout history has been deplorable. Comparing it to the treatment Jews suffered in Christendom 1000 years ago it may come out ahead, but that is hardly a standard worth using. And you surely must be kidding when you talk about the treatment of Jews in contemporary Muslim countries. Jews have been practically kicked out of most countries in North Africa and the Middle East due to the repression and religious intolerance there. Not to mention all of the Jewish property seized. I can’t believe you mentioned the Jews in Yemen who are suffering acute persecution. Muslim persecution of Jews started with the pact of Omar and continues to this day. Read some history indeed!

  • PanhandleWilly

    Athena4 wrote:”The guy that went postal in Orlando today has the last name of Rodriguez. So, I guess some folks are going to be calling for a “jihad” against Hispanics now because of this? Paging Lou Dobbs…”There are no reports that Mr Rodriguez was shouting ‘Our Father, who art in heaven’ as he was pulling the trigger.

  • groucho42

    The writer ignores one key issue: Reality.Islam is the most violent major religion in the present day. It’s founder, Mohammend, ordered and led raid after raid, battle after battle. He describe jihad, war necessary to control the earth for the Umma, the people of Islam.While other ancient religions with violent foundations have changed, Islam remains true to its roots. Most Muslim majority nations have some form of Sharia enshrined, and many are moving to stricter forms. Sharia describes not only how Muslims should live, but how non-Muslims must be ritually demeaned to show Islam’s power.The Organization of the Islamic Conferences, a group representing 57 Muslim nations, openly rejects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In its place, they put forward the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. It says no rights exist that don’t come from Sharia.When a Danish cartoonist poked fun at Muslims, that wasn’t enough. Muslims added more incendiary cartoons, then rioted against free speech. Globally, millions of Muslims violently expressed their anger at any view of Islam they they don’t promulgate, all the while pushing much more virulent views of non-Muslims in Arab and Islamic nations’ media. Nobody can point to a single major Muslim protest where the message was “we don’t like the message of the cartoons but we believe in free speech”. No Muslims stood against the mainstream violence inherent in the religion.Again and again, Muslims worldwide shout, not for religious freedom and tolerance, but for Muslims to rule. they back up that shouting with violence.

  • Krsna

    Really Eboo, “he is not a muslim”. How easy it is to disown after the fact. What are you doing to prevent the weekly, Friday brain washing of youth that goes on in mosques through out the world. In the muslim world, it is always “Us against them”. In Middle east, them would be Jews, In South asia, them would be Hindus, In other parts of the world them would be Christians. Of course there are reasonable muslims through out the world but who knows how many of them are seething with anger inside. This Major is a perfect example of someone who seemed reasonable, law abiding but obviously had seething anger that eventually came out in such tragic manner. There is a problem with Islam, at least the way in which it is preached. It is important for muslims to recognize that before any reform can take place. How is it a religion of peace when people that practice this faith are responsible for world wide strife.

  • svengerald

    I am truly sorry to say that the only distortion going on here is the belief that islam is a religion of peace. This “murderer” did exactly what his holy book prescribes, “kill infidels where ye find them”. The fact that he killed real heroes who protect this nation should prompt the removal of all muslims from the military, call me racist if you like, islam is not a race, it is evil.

  • fgoepfert1

    This is the same old lie offered by the Muslim apologists. Islam has been a movement of terror, murder, conquest and enslavement since it was invented. If Muslims accept and follow the Quran and Sharia law, they engage in murder, torture, conquest and enslavement.

  • Alon1

    All this happy talk about Islam is absurd. Of course, the killer was a Muslim, and he was acting consistently with the teachings of the Quran, which are to kill all infidels.

  • yasseryousufi

    rentianxiang,You ask me to read history and cite just one example of post Israel intolerance of Islam. I challenge you to cite me one I repeat ONE instance of Jews being subjected to the same amount of vengeance in an Islamic country, that Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Israelis. Islam was the biggest super power and the largest empire for almost a 1000 years (600 to 1500 AD). If it were really against Jewish people they had ample time to finish them off. Instead we know that the Jews kept high posts in the Courts of Muslim emperors. The Jews as people of the book were held in high esteem by muslims usually. The most often read prayer by muslims “Durood Shareef” asks Allah to have mercy on the children of Ibrahim (Abraham).That all ofcourse changed with the diabolical chain of events that led to the creation of Israel on the Muslim Holy Lands. And yes there was a reaction to that, specially when Jews burnt the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. So yea……I dont know what history they teach you in the Hebrew ultra orthodox schools of occupied west bank. What I tell you is the real history verifiable by western historians~!

  • johng1

    youpoopedinyourpantsi, that may have been true more than 500 years ago. Who cares. The present status is de facto acceptance of violence and/or allowing them refuge while under the guise of battling terrorism (Pak). We cannot accept allowing this within our borders.

  • JimJohnson2

    This act is perfectly consistent, even encouraged, within certain elements of Islam. I predict that there will be public praise for this act in certain countries by certain groups and celebrations is some places. OK not everywhere in the Muslim world but they won’t be isolated.

  • Athena4

    “But already the shooting has been glorified on at least one Jihadist Web site. A nearly four-minute video displayed media clips of the aftermath of the shooting, and declared that Maj. Hasan “did Jihad in that base and killed no less than 13 Crusader foreigners” and “put terror and chaos in the ranks of the enemy.””So? Just because some pimple-faced wannabe jihadist has access to video-making software doesn’t mean that Hasan was part of the group. The wannabe probably pulled video down from CNN, just like anyone else. Heck, I could make a video glorifying the guy that shot up the Holocaust Museum with the software that I have on my computer. That doesn’t mean that I’d want to. Speaking of our buddy the Holocaust Museum shooter, I’m still waiting for Christian groups to condemn what he did. After all, you followers of the “Prince of Peace” are all alike. (sarcasm)

  • yokosuka1985

    We are a Christian country..why can’t the moslems leave and go back to their own part of the world?

  • sbmerk

    All the “bigots” are out in force attacking all Muslims over the Texas shooter’s ethnic background – they fail to remember that Timothy McVeigh killed 100s in OK City; 2 Americans killed several fellow students at Columbine; Charles Whitman, a former Marine killed 14 from the U. of TX tower, etc. But it’s so much easier to blame people who you don’t like because they’re “different” than you.

  • sbmerk

    And don’t forget the KKK – that wonderful Christian organization!

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    PanhandleWilly,

  • cdlumpkin

    Branding a man before he is tried and convected is un-American. If it comes out that Major Hasan did act out of a sense of misguided faith rather than the more apparent motive of trying to get out of deploying to Iraq, it should put no blame on others of his faith.It has been my experience, as a Christian (Baptist) minister, that people invoke the name of God before they think they are about to die. Calling out to Allah is not necessarily an act proclaiming oneself a Islamic terrorist, any more than a Christian crying out to God/Jesus before they murder others mean they murder in the name of Jesus. Both want the divine name on their lips when they die.Major Nidal M. Hasan, if he is convicted of this tragic crime, should be seen as representing nothing other than himself. There is more than a few Christians who attend church faithfully each week and still miss the part about Loving God and others. Let’s take the log out of our eye and do what all people of faith should be doing now, coming together in love and prayer for those hurt in this tragic event.Major Hasan is destined to face justice here and beyond. In both places he will be judged by his actions, not where he attended worship.

  • johng1

    The KKK are a bunch of has beens. The new organization is called something like “teabaggers.”

  • JLDKensington

    Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all “people of the book”. If you want to know the true essence of each of these religions, I recommend that you take a little time to actually read their respective holy books (Koran, Tanakh, Bible). In the meantime, be on the lookout for those people who are truly at peace – who love God and love others as themselves. As they say, “You can tell a tree by its fruit.”

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    I challenge you to cite me one I repeat ONE instance of Jews being subjected to the same amount of vengeance in an Islamic countryThe following nations have exiled most of their Jewish population, having tortured, molested, killed, having stolen their land and property. The Jews of these nations dwelled therein since before there was Islam:EgyptNot only did we not blow ourselves or others up, we did not fire rockets at anyone. And unlike the Israelis, our enemies did not blanket us with warning fliers and leaflets for weeks beforehand.Yasseryousufi is askeered of the Christians and Hindus, and he should be. Those folks don’t mess around. They understand that Hasan was outraged at the US mass murder in Afghanistan and Iraq, that Hasan was horrified by the shell shock he witnessed among returning servicement, by the imminent prospect of being deployed. The AmeriChristians understand, and they empathize. But they are not Jews. They will not put up with terror, and I say, More Power To THEM.

  • Garak

    yokosuka1985 wrote: “We are a Christian country..why can’t the moslems leave and go back to their own part of the world?”Yeah, and take those heathen Native Americans with them! And the Jews. And the Catholics (they ain’t real Christians, Rev. Hagee told me so).

  • sbmerk

    In reply to:I dare you to find ONE mention of Christ in our founding documents? Our founding fathers were very careful not to put that label on us – we are a democracy which welcomes ALL people of the world.

  • yasseryousufi

    johng1,I dont know about you! But a lot of your fellow Christian Crusaders of Goodness in Afghanistan, do poop in their panties when they have to go out and fight the Talibaans. They sit cowering inside their greenzones while Talibaan roam the countryside. And that after 8 years of Daisy Cutters, Bunker Busters, B2 Bombers, A super duper alliance of 42 Crusading Nations against a ragtag army of sand ni&&erz.

  • johng1

    poop in their panties, I am not a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or member any other stupid religion.

  • johng1

    In fact, poop in their panties, I stand with both Pat Buchanan and Barack Obama, both of whom stated early on we have no business in those ME countries. We will never “win” anything over there. It is a huge waste of money!

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    yokosuka1985, you said,whoa! hold on there big fella… thomas jefferson, john madison, ben franklin, john adams et. al. FOUGHT HARD to make sure we were NOT a christian nation. america HAS NO national deity – that’s what makes us great.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    yasseryousufi,B.s. as usual, standard islamic crap. You should very well know the background of that incident, and, moreover, it was one. I’ve mentioned numerous countries which practiced horror against Jews, unrelentingly.I have not brought up the three million Christians you have enslaved for generations in Pakistan and Bangaldesh, forcing them to clean out feces from the sewers with their FINGERS. (They die young.)I have not brought up the B’hai, who are now an “endangered people” according to the United nations.I have not brought up Uzbekistan, Algeria, dozens of other countries where you tortured, murdered us, stole our property.Oh, and Murderer, I negelected to mention the little boy lured to a cave, murdered, his body smeared on the walls.But, then, of course, you cut off Jews’ heads, your wives heads, Christians’ heads. You blow up trainloads of people in India. You kill your sisters for the crime of having been raped. You throw acid in the face of women who aren’t interested.What are a few hundred thousand dead Jews, Christians, enslaved Christians, your own women to you? Nada. You are simple Murderers. As for the AmeriChristians, I say, More Power to Them. To the Hindus, I say More Power to Them. They will not put up with terror as Jews do.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Oh, and yasseryousufi,I forgot to mention the three thousand Americans you slaughtered on Septemter 11, 2001. In my neighborhood, we had to wear masks in the street. We watched files floating on the waters. On TV, we watched your co-Muslims cheering in New Jersey, on the highway.Simple murderers.

  • ravitchn

    The politically correct press and Obama administration will portray Muslims as pacific, tolerant, and loving. In fact, they are a bunch of medieval fanatics whom we should nuke into oblivion.

  • hello2012

    Mr. Patel: I apologize for all the regrettably unkind remarks against you and against Islam that appear here. God, g-d, Ahura Mazda, Allah (blessed be them all if they exist), are imperfect apparitions that Man created to give some sense to his frightful world when Man lived alone in dark caves. Man created a horrifying creature god who hates women (because of the “fall”, that splendid silliness about Eve taking a bite out of the apple and putting her trust in the snake (even I believe the snake)), who plagues us with all kinds of diseases and natural disasters and all other kinds of scary scenarios, and who stands silent as he allows mankind to construct weapons of mass destruction (which purpose is to annihilate each one of us). Further, our manmade “god” specifically chose a group of people, the Israelites, to get all the heavenly goodies and everyone else is here on earth as mere window dressing. Of course this cannot make sense to any rational being. And further, we are supposedly evolving to something more splendid a species, that’s why we were allegedly put here on this earth. Unfortunately, there is too much inherited anger within us from our imperfect and warped religious backgrounds, and I’m afraid we will be back up in the trees swinging from the branches. If all the learned priests, rabbis, scholars, Imams, philosophers, ad nauseum, cannot bring us together, how can anyone expect each of us, limited as we are with hardly a brain cell left in our heads with which to act rationally and with some grace and dignity, … how can we change the world? That would mean no more wars, and I’m afraid there are too many factions which make money from this earth’s continuous skirmishes. Death is cheap and peace is not attainable at any price as long as man dwells on this planet. We are cheap and nasty squatters on this planet. We are the aliens here. We are vastly more frightening than anything science fiction can dream up. Amen.

  • rcubedkc

    All non muzlum Americans should remember the words of Teddy Roosevelt.Speak softly and carry a Glock.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz1Mansouri1,Thats a lot of yapping even by your own standards. That by the way wasnt a one off incident and pray tell what was the background of that accident?? Who are these animals in Israeli Judiciary, supposedly the only democracy in the Middle-East, who letoff their fellow animal to murder even more babies?Wow, 3 million enslaved Christians? Got any proof of that? You dont worry much about the credibility stuff of your posts do you?The Bahai’s are actually more than 5 million strong and growing at a rate of 4.4% according to the Bahai sources themselves. The Biigest Majority of Bahai’s after India lives in the Muslim Iran~!Next you got a whole laundry list of events which have nothing to do with Islam. Jews lived in prosperity and with peace with their Muslim brothers for hundreds of years before the diabolical creation of Israel. Israel is the cancer that eats up all the goodwill built upon generations. Again I would ask you to cite a muslim atrocity committed against Jewish people before Israel was created~! But you would never wanna go there.So can I also ask you explain why the 5 million Iraqi children had to die because of the US sponsored embargoes? and add to that another million who died in the war fought on a pack of lies? What about the thousands dead in Afghanistan? what about the Bosnian Muslims? Chechens? Kashmiris? Palestinians? Mindanao? Again, spare us the moral high ground crap. If we were to take an eye for eye, you guys would have been blown up 10 times over~!

  • johng1

    Woooaaa hello2012, that was more pessimistic than anything I spewed here. But, you are correct.

  • johng1

    The Times just put up an interactive of the murdered soldiers. Truly a slice of America. Very sad.

  • 411Tibby

    No reasonable person wants to live with pre conceptions and generalizations. Generalizations are another form of lying. However, images are harder to remove than words and discussions. And he assimiliated as much as anyone could, joined and benefited from our armed force but failed to see us as family and countrymen. That is powerful. And it doesn’t happen wih agnostics.

  • paultaylor1

    It is a beastly pity, this incident. Not to mention all atrocities inspired by religious disposition. There’s no question hatred and violence can result from religious thought and training. Religious doctrines, as set down in the manuscripts, are open to personal and political interpretations. Even more so because they advocate universal, but often conflicting truths, filtered through cultural biases. As for Islam, no other religion has come close to influencing so chillingly violent actions as this. Not in recent historical times.And instead of simply dismissing the violence as an aberration of “true” Qur’anic doctrine, good Muslims everywhere should be moved by the horror, and earnestly work against the intolerance and violence. When they do not, they sacrifice the universal moral authority of Islam.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    minister cdlumpkin, you said,”Branding a man before he is tried and convected is un-American.”yes. absolutely!”If it comes out that Major Hasan did act out of a sense of misguided faith rather than the more apparent motive of trying to get out of deploying to Iraq, it should put no blame on others of his faith.”no! if he did this because of his faith, blame his faith.”It has been my experience, as a Christian (Baptist) minister, that people invoke the name of God before they think they are about to die. Calling out to Allah is not necessarily an act proclaiming oneself a Islamic terrorist, any more than a Christian crying out to God/Jesus before they murder others mean they murder in the name of Jesus. Both want the divine name on their lips when they die.”as they say, that’s mighty christian of ya, but to me it makes a BIG DIFFERENCE to me if the guy had “in the name of jesus” or “in the name of allah” “on his lips” when he KILLS people.and how many people, lately, have we heard calling on jesus as they kill people? jim jones? david koresh? i’m sure there are a others more recent. but we hear “allahu akbar” EVERY DAY from religious killers. (i’m not judging hassan, yet, but speaking of “suicide bombers.)

  • Nymous

    This guy acted against his faith, not with it or for it. His association of faith with his evil choices put him outside of his faith completely.The author of this article points out something that a lot of Americans don’t seem very cognizant of, but that’s just how actively anti-violence & anti-hatred American Muslims really are. They’re a group who’s working very hard to end violence in the world in the name of their religion. Not being Muslim might have something to do with missing a lot of this. Just trying to point out the obvious there…I have trouble thinking of anything more stupid for a Muslim to do than what this nitwit did.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    farnaz, you said,i’ll totally give this to you. jews/israel have “behaved” MUCH better than their muslim/palestinian counterparts.to israelis and palestinians:

  • abhab1

    Eboo says:

  • pioneer1

    Lots of sophistry here. The news details building up are to the effect that the murderer committed his crimes on account of him being a Muslim and believing that his mythology-based belief system was supportive and encouraging of his murders.

  • mansour112

    CDLUMPKINYou are a true Christian. Thank you for your comment.

  • dbsinOakRidge

    It’s reached the point in what passes for a civilized world that we must confront the following and take a clear, unambiguous position or we are doomed to a cycle of violence that will become more widespread and preemptive until or unless…

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    yasseryousufi, you said,you can’t really think this?! jews commit 10 times the moral atrocities of muslims?!

  • andrewzboard

    CDLUMPKIN, you are wise.

  • jrw1

    I’m frankly a little tired of all these apologizes for Islam. No matter what atrocity they perpetrate next, the response is “This is not real Islam.” I’m sorry but “Yes it is”. Look, it is a violent religion, hopelessly stuck in medieval times and totally backward; public stoning, suicide bombers, amputations, all standard issue Islam. And the redeeming features. Re-read the previous list. I’m sorry; a plague on all religions, but especially Islam.

  • PanhandleWilly

    “Mr. Patel: I apologize for all the regrettably unkind remarks against you and against Islam that appear here.”Don’t apologize for me dude. I meant what I said and if it sounds unkind to you, then all I can say is the truth hurts sometimes.You can vomit out all the PC claptrap you want but it doesn’t make his message true or most of the comments here untrue.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    abhab1, you quoted eboo,and commented,”He omitted the word “innocent” between “single” and “life” as found in his scriptures. The Muslims are the ones who determine who is “innocent” and who is not…According to their understanding of their scriptures, the West is not “innocent”…”excellent catch. smarmy how apologists omit key words when useful to their purposes…

  • Georgetowner1

    Mr. Patel should speak to the Post’s own editorial staff. The first headline I read said something about a “Devout Muslim” doing the killings. I would say that a headline such as that in a major newspaper goes a long way in promoting a connection in people’s minds between the Muslim religion and violence. As Mr. Patel points out, all three major religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Muslim have major teachings on kind treatment of fellow human beings.

  • simpleton1

    Of course a Muslim did this. It seems pretty clear that his Islamic faith influenced and guided him to the actions he took today.That’s not to say that all Muslims are like this murderer, or that Islam necessarily caused anything. But one must take the good with the bad. Whether a law exists or not is only half the analysis — the true issue is whether, and why, members of a group choose to obey their laws. Therefore, saying that the shooter’s actions had nothing to do with Islam because Islam forbids these killings, is like saying the Orlando office shooter’s actions today had nothing to do with American culture since murder is illegal is Florida. That would be absurd. The better question is why Americans muder one another so often even though they all agree that murder is wrong. Likewise, the better question here is why so many Muslims commit these deliberate, murderous acts if they also believe Islam is peaceful.

  • mburix

    “Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label.” mmhh that’s a curious comment for sure. Haven’t people killed in the name of religion for centuries? I’m 41 years old now and the longer I live the more certain I am that religious labels are a burden instead of an honor. And that’s true for all dogmatic religions.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    YasseryousufiSame old, same old, blah, blah and blah. Ask Mom to help you scroll down. Look at what you and your co-religionists have done and do. You do it to Jews, to Christians, to Hindus, and to your women.Yesterday, you did it to thirteen servicemen and maimed thirty-one others.After this country paid hundreds of thousands to educated him.Simple murderers.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    yasseryousufi,Isn’t it time to discuss camel racing?

  • BillHiggins1

    The title for this article on the washingtonpost.com web site: “Not a true Muslim” reminded me of the “No true Scotsman” logical fallacy: That being said, it’s always unhelpful to project the actions of an individual onto a group, so I take the author’s point.

  • zebra4

    TO ALL THE ISLAMOPHOBES HERE AND ELSEWHERE:Not all slenderly-built, blue-eyed, white Christians think like Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy Mc Veigh.Despite numerous bombings of abortion clinics in America, the Army of God fanatics who used Jesus’ name in committing acts of terrorism, no one ever called those fanatics, “Christian terrorists”. And no one should.Despite Catholics and Proestants terrorising each other for more than 400 years in Northern Ireland, no one ever blamed Christianity as a whole for those acts of terrorism.Despite Europeans colonizing most of Asia, Africa, and Australia, stealing peoples’s resources, no one called them Christian terrorists who committed such heinous crimes like the “Blackhole of Calcutta” or the massacres of Jalianwala Bagh in India. Those Europeans were true terrorists. Were it Muslims who destroyed the civilizations of the Maya, the Aztec, and the Inca people? People of what religion were the perpetrators of those heinous crimes?Conclusion: Although all acts of violence and terrorism must be condemned, maligning all Muslims by the Islamphobes here for the acts of one person or a few individuals must be deplored by fair-minded people.

  • vikaspriyanka

    No matter how you sugarcoat things, Islam is a serious liability to mankind. Mother of all evil ideologies.

  • DeLyonGetty

    The idiot who appointed this evil idiot thereby enabling him to accomplish his corruption, should be relieved of his status in the army. There is a reason why this bastard was allowed to kill our soldiers with impunity. We must find the person(s) responsible and courtmartial him/her immediately. The shooter Muslim should face the death penalty upon conviction. Or else our army and nation will go down the pan,led by the silly Walking Eagle in the White House.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    zebra4, (hi)true.”Despite numerous bombings of abortion clinics in America, the Army of God fanatics who used Jesus’ name in committing acts of terrorism, no one ever called those fanatics, “Christian terrorists”. And no one should.”some people did, RIGHTLY, call the religiously-motivated abortion clinic bombers “christian terrorists”.the difference between the “crazy christian killers” and the “crazy muslim killers” is the sheer numbers. EVERY DAY we hear of some “allahu akbar” yelling killer.

  • DeLyonGetty

    Zebra4;’Despite Catholics and Proestants terrorising each other for more than 400 years in Northern Ireland, no one ever blamed Christianity as a whole for those acts of terrorism’Really Zebra4?Do you really believe this? Christianity was rightly blamed for 20 years for 20 years of slaughter in the various names and cabals the religionist protagonists represented. Christianity was blamed day after bloody day. Northern Ireland seriously damaged the entire Christian message in Ireland as a whole. To watch the various priests/bishops/vicars of Christ etc etc on TV and press denouncing the vile acts whilst still proclaiming their own righteousness and blamelessness, was one of the most vulgar and reprehensible aspects of that dastardly war.Check your facts in future Zebra4 or you will be in danger of being called a donkey.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    DeLyonGetty, you said,it is my understanding that there were “warning signs” in hassan’s background. if this bears out…not good.

  • twm1

    Seems to me that much of this anti-Muslim

  • vikaspriyanka

    This guy is another muslim traitor. Muslims have been betraying every country they have been living in. Kick muslims out of this country, if you do not want to repeat this kind of tragedy again.

  • Robster1

    C’mon you liberal freaks, who you kiddin’. We all know that Muslims are mostly a bunch of murderers.

  • Navin1

    We don’t know much about the major idiot. But if a group keeps saying we are not responsible for the actions of the few, soon you get a Nazi takeover. Then people say, we didn’t know it was going to get that bad. Eventually the group has to take responsibility for the individual. Every Friday in mosque the muslims learn that god hates non believers, etc. Every sunday christians learn that god hates the egyptians an idolators. Some day, these people will learn to hate a hateful god and stop reading their books worshiping a god of hate. But alas, they keep rationalizing, it wasn’t us so the fact that it was done in our name is not my responsibility. And you get major idiots killing young people volunteering to help their country. It is time to have no proxy saviors, no last prophets, no books between you and god.harium

  • vikaspriyanka

    Our brave men got killed by a Muslim right here on American Soil. I cannot believe this.

  • marine2211

    If I hear one more person repeat the lie that Islam is a religion of peace and love, I’ll throw up.

  • jedsil

    Major Hasan said that he considered himself a Muslim before an American. His family said he’s been a practicing Muslim his entire life. He said that he could never fight against a fellow Muslim. Question: Why did he join the military? Did he think he was going to have the luxury of picking his enemies? And, if his murderous rampage had nothing to do with his religion, why did he post jihadist messages on line and scream “Allah Akbar” while shooting more than 40 unarmed fellow soldiers with two guns? This man is clearly a terrorist and clearly a Muslim. No amount of PC baloney can obscure these essential facts.

  • ihatelogins

    What makes your Islamic beliefs and interpretations more valid than his? Could he not quote passages from the Koran? Could he not justify his acts, even if those justifications seem absurd to us?

  • datdamwuf2

    Christians are ignorant and they are sometimes still violent (see killing Dr. Tiller, for those who say religion is not mentioned if the perpetrator is Christian, here is exhibit one that denies that). Christians also often still treat women unequally but they have improved a great deal on that count also. Muslims are ignorant and often violent (see killing and burning because of cartoons of the prophet as exhibit one), and treat women like slaves (see 11 year old children married to old men). Some modernized Muslims have improved and aren’t any worse than Christians but many “devout” Muslims in all parts of the world are not modernized. A key quote from the author “In Islam, MERCY is a deeply cherished value – the most senior Muslim scholar in the WEST says it is actually the central value of the tradition.”Emphasis added is mine, only a very few of the holy men say this and only those who live in places such as the US. But interesting to me is that the author doesn’t say that preserving human life, or respect for all is paramount, he says MERCY. I would be interested in an interpretation of what mercy means to a devout Muslim…

  • EliPeyton

    Lots of experts, no solutions. The problem started when Ishmael made fun of Isaac.”In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”

  • zebra4

    vikaspriyanka :Did you know that Hindus of Gujarat committed genocide of Muslims in 2002? And they destroyed homes and businesses of Muslims amounting to millions of dollars?Did you know that Hindus of India are known for urine drining, painting homes with cow dung paste, painting swastikas in their homes and temples, burning brides alive for the sake of dowry, burning alive widows in the name of sati, and practicing caste discrimination?Did you know that the Maharashtrians (State) want to expell all non-Maharashtrians? And this evil concept is spreading now to other states?Before you blame Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, I say to you: PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF!

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    A key quote from the author “In Islam, MERCY is a deeply cherished value – the most senior Muslim scholar in the WEST says it is actually the central value of the tradition.”Can someone address this?

  • zebra4

    some people did, RIGHTLY, call the religiously-motivated abortion clinic bombers “christian terrorists”.You say “some people”. Was it on page 36 of NY Times or page 48 of WP? Sorry, I missed it.I remember during the primary season of 2008 election, Ron Paul, the libertarian candidate raised important questions no other Republican candidate bothered to respond to. Two of them were: (1) Why do we have to bail out large corporations with borrowed money and (2) Why do we have to have 164 bases in foreign countries? Don’t they cost money and add on to our deficit and debt problem? He also said that why do we have to go to countries with our armies in the Middle East? He emphasized that that was the heart of the problem. Of course, I paraphrased these questions.By the way, I am not a libertarian.

  • rwheeler1

    An underlying problem here is that we are a diverse, pluralistic society, and our many religions clash. The difficulties arise when members of various faiths attempt to impose their beliefs and rules not just on their own faithful congregations, but on everyone else. It is fine for Catholic bishops to condemn abortion and tell their members not to do it. The difficulty comes when the bishops wish to apply their teachings to others who disagree, or impose their will by force of law on others. It is fine for mullahs to insist that Muslims obey Muslim moral law and codes of conduct, or Sharia; the problem arises when they want to impose it on everyone else. The only way multicultural societies can survive is for each faith to impose its strictures on its own faithful, and not upon others who have different views. I have the sense that some clerics are so certain of the virtue of their views that they are not content to preach to their congregations; they want to tell the whole world what to do. And that is what can inspires followers to engage in mayhem.

  • gator915

    Eboo Pastel wasted no time in turning this into a discussion about how unfairly all of Islam is treated. And it is exactly those kinds of sentiments that breed the resentments that lead to this kind of violence.

  • oracle2world

    What fresh b********** is this? If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.Islam starts out with “kill all the infidels” and kind of goes downhill from there.Muslims are loyal to Islam, period. National boundaries hold little interest for them.

  • zebra4

    I know more then you know.Please look at your own guys before you preach anyone. Why is islam producing so many terrorists?..everywhere in the world..are they being harrased everywhere in the world. you want to know why?.because they follow Quran, which basically is the root of all the problems. Posted by: vikaspriyankaAny one who clains to be “Mr know it all” has to be childish with an I.Q. of 34.I have an amusing episode for you.A man advertised to sell his used encyclopedia in a news paper. He wrote,”I don’t need it, the new wife knows it all”.

  • mandala77777

    Where is my comment?

  • Tamerack

    As a man is taught reason, thus he shall reason.

  • danders5000

    Let me see Whites, Blacks and Latino have had someone in their race who has committed horrific acts….Muslim-America – Welcome to the Country of Bigotry. If you are a darker race that commits a crime…Your whole race will be label as such…However, if you are of a “lighter pale” race and a crime is committed you get to say “I am shocked he was quiet and nice, we never have crime in this community”….blah blah blah….Bulls#it! WELCOME TO THE LAND OF THE FREE (?)

  • nanda1

    Patel is a Hindu name. So, this whole thing is a bit confusing. But, permit me to state something so fundamental to all people — Irish Catholics, black Southern Baptists, Chinese Taoist or even atheists are not careening around the World committing JIHAD. Look at a World Map. Wherever you see blood and genocide, you will find Islamists. This WILL to destroy has NO JUSTIFICATION. Ask the Lost Boys of the Sudan. What “religion” would name a mountain range HINDU KUSH – killer of Hindu? As long as Muslims try to excuse these monstrosities, they will be suspect throughout the World – viewed correctly as psychopaths and rogues.

  • pieroni73

    I’m Italian and Argentine descendant, come to this Country with a student visa. I will die for it, if allowed to. Since I came here, I’m struggling for getting the visas for me and my family. Why US give papers to such terrorists?? can I prove my loyalty to US??? please give me a M16, and a green card and for patriotism will take down muslims terrorist for pleasure , any part in the world. Advice to US Military: you are in war with “religion” terrorist, so kick all Muslims in Army, or expel them for the country, or force to return to their lands so they can blame their own kind for that. Never in human history I saw a a religion so evil as this crazy wackos muslims are.

  • fstewart61

    What Major Hasan did was horrific and inexcusable. Other Muslims have done horrific things. So have Christians and followers of every other religion. Atheists and other nonreligious people have also committed their share of horrific deeds. Muslims and followers of every other religion and of no religion have also acted with tremendous compassion and courage. We need to look beyond the labels and see the people.

  • nanda1

    to rwheeler 1 …. when was the last time the Catholic Bishops or Baptist Ministers or Buddhists took out their “cop killer” guns and blew away 13 innocent lives? Just like blowing out candles. I wonder where their souls went in the Universe? Of course, you don’t believe in souls. But, if you can not differentiate mass murder from “social” arguments, then you need serious help.

  • pkhenry

    Date Country City Killed Injured Description

  • cbccard

    you can find bad and good examples of people in every race, religion, political party. so one is forced to look at the group’s founding/founder and its source of authority (scriptures) to understand its intent. in light of muhammad’s life, how can one argue that islam is a peaceful religion?also, how do these suras seem peaceful?”….Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you find them; besiege them, seize them, lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush….”(Sura 9:5).”When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them….”(Sura 47:4).”….Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden….until they pay tribute…” (Sura 9:29).jesus said to love your enemy and he gave up his life willingly.

  • Jeffner

    PK Henry…. There are Millions on Muslims.. To take these few incidents attributed them to a whole religion is clearly racist in many peoples minds. Political correctness gone heywire.

  • Jeffner

    ” But a Muslim did ot do this ” Mr. Patel wrote… Thanks sir. I had read that the guy was a Muslim. I think you might want to let the media know they are incorrect. They may need to retract their stories. Better call the AP and get that out ASAP! Breaking story! Wow wait till I tell my family and frienda and coworkers that they were mistaken.

  • nanda1

    to oracle2world – oh, these are ducks for sure. But, I like ducks, so why don’t we call them what they really are – MONSTERS. Aside from the “warm and fuzzy” Taliban who cut off hands and force women into blue tents, I will never forget Al Qaeda cutting off the head of Daniel Pearl with a penknife. I’ve lived a long time. There are 2 victims I’ll never forget – Daniel Pearl and “Kiki” Camerana. Check out the alliance between these Islamists and the drug cartels.

  • nanda1

    cbccard – thank you.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    PKHenry,Not completely up to date. Twenty were just killed in Peshawar, seven more in Philippines.

  • Navin1

    There are killers that are muslim, there are killers that are christian, there are killers that are buddhists, and killers that are atheists. No one man speaks for a religion (positively or negatively) but each man has the right to his religion. Even a murderer. This man is a muslim.hariuam

  • interfaithing

    “Killers do not deserve the honor of a religious label.”Well said, I really like that quote.

  • 4549

    Thanks for saying it. He’s a guy who cracked. Muslims crack up just like anybody else. Why should their religion always precede the act, as if the religion condones the acts. The media never misses an opportunity to exacerbate the misconceptions. It’s so unfair to the real God-fearing Muslim.

  • harveyh5

    Did religious beliefs influence the 9/11 terrorists? To hold the position that religion is all good and has no role whatsoever in amoral actions is to have one’s head in the ground.

  • pcondon

    Doesn’t it say in the Koran to kill all

  • ravitchn

    Most Americans never believed the baloney about the peacefulness of Islam. Ever less now.

  • msjn1

    If he just cracked he’s another victim of these unnecessary wars. If he shouted Ahalhu Akbar, then it’s a different story. If he had a difficult past in his training, why did they keep him in the Army?

  • sardento3

    The problem is whenever someone “of faith” does something like this “the faith” disowns them and distances themselves from them. Up to this moment you would have claimed them as a brother in Islam or Christianity, etc. Either they are your brother or not

  • rentianxiang

    Firstly, I am sorry Mr. Patel but, in fact, a Muslim did do this. It is possible to be both a murderer and a Muslim, as we have seen time and time again. Secondly, it is becoming clear that this man was not merely Muslim in name but a devout Muslim who was actually involved in proselytizing. In addition, it appears he did not want to be deployed to a theater involving Muslims. You are so blinded by your wishful thinking that you fail to see reality: the Koran, the Hadith and the biographies of the Muslim prophet Muhammad can be seen to condone and even encourage attacks against non-Muslims. I have read the Quran and your assertion above that it encourages “interfaith cooperation” is abjectly false. People like you that continue to paint a picture of Islam as a religion of peace are doing a great disservice to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. What you really should be confronting and discussing is why so many of your co-religionists are so violent. Instead of denying Islam’s role, you need to be honest and critical and figure out how to reconcile the violent and intolerant aspects of the Quran and Hadith to the modern world. You will continue to have Islam-inspired violence as long as you fail to be honest and confront the problems within Islam itelf. So-called Islamophobes are not commiting violence in the name of Islam, Muslims are. (Although it is still unclear in this case if it was done in the name of Islam, although there are reports the murderer was shouting “Allahu Akbar” as he fired.)Also, ISNA and MPAC are two organizations that promote the concept of Islamic supremacy and work for the implementation of Shariah law in the US. I wouldn’t reference them as shining examples of peace-loving Muslims. Also, one needs to read their condemnations carefully since the word “innocent” might not mean the same to them as it does to most people. Are people in the military of a country involved in a war against Muslims “innocent”? How about civilians who pay taxes in support of such an army?

  • -PBL-

    I don’t understand some of these radical muslims. If they so truly believe their scriptures they must know that for them an eye for an eye and a brother for a brother would end up with them losing. Militarily they are no match. Only political correctness keeps us in check. I know some will say we can’t win. I contend we have put on kid gloves and if those gloves come off, those on the recieving end will be very sad.

  • sanmateo1850

    Have you ever seen a report that says this type of action is what the Muslim religion is all about? Stereotypes get made for a reason…if the real muslims do not like what a select few are doing, they need to make them stop! It is time for the Muslim community across the world to fight themselves if they are truly against what the terrorists stand for.

  • sunny617

    RWHEELER1 said it PERFECTLY:

  • cutewithchrisfan

    True, Hasan is not a true Muslim. But then, neither is Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, Islamic Jihad, Ahmadinejad, Qaddafi, the 9-11 hijackers and a whole bunch of others, but I don’t hear mainstream Muslims condemning them. I’m starting to get a little fed up with extremists who claim to be peaceful, then they play the victim after one of their own goes out and murders people in the name of their god.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    ContinuedAt the district level, it will continue support for social reintegration and protection of the repatriated children including those who may be returning in the future. Seven Union Councils of Rahim Yar Khan District in the Punjab Province and two Union Councils of Larkana District in the Sindh Province, from where the majority of camel jockey children come from, have been selected for this project. The UAE-UNICEF Repatriation Programme will start in the province of Sindh in June 2007.The rehabilitation process of returned children is being closely monitored by the Child Protection and Welfare Bureau (CPWB), Government of the Punjab, and UNICEF. CPWB staff regularly visits their families and schools/vocational centres to get an update on their progress. Youth clubs and community organizations have been formed to help these children re-integrate into their communities.UNICEF is providing technical support to the UAE Government and the CPWB for the repatriation and rehabilitation of the camel jockey children. With funds provided by the UAE government, a conditional cash grant of 600 Pak. Rupees (UAE Dirham 37, US $10) is given to every child for education provided he has an 80 per cent attendance in school or at a vocational training centre. A bicycle has also been given to every repatriated child.Click the links below to read human interest stories of Children Formerly Involved in Camel Racing (CICR):Asjad started racing camels when he was only four (2.94 MB pdf)Hameed Musa raced camels for eight years (2.97 MB pdf)Zufliqar loves going to school and would never like to race camels again (3.42 MB pdf)Formerly involved in camel racing, brothers Shan and Ehsan are bright students (2.94MB pdf)

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    The UAE and Qatar have signed off on the kidnapping and “purchasing” of young boys for employment in camel racing. Otherwise, it is still going on all over the Middle East, and it is an absolute horror.Some are sold to pimps for prostitution after they are deemed unfit for their current slave positions. Some live and return home.————————————–United Arab Emirates and United Nations Children’s Fund Rehabilitation Programme for Children Formerly Involved in Camel Racing (CICR)On May 7, 2005, the Government of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) signed a ground breaking agreement to return children formerly employed as camel jockeys to their countries of origin and reintegrate them into their communities. Under the programme, more than 1,077 children from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan, Mauritania and Eritrea received services at community centres and were repatriated.By June 2007, 695 children have been repatriated to Pakistan out of which 334 have returned through the UAE-UNICEF Repatriation Programme while 361 came back through their own arrangements. Second Phase of the UAE-UNICEF Rehabilitation ProgrammeIn a meeting held in Abu Dhabi in April 2007, the UAE has committed itself to fully fund a second phase of the repatriation programme, which is intended to help not only those repatriated under the first phase, but also those who returned to their countries outside the programme. continues

  • metonyme

    So would the actions of Irish Catholic terrorists represent:1. All Irish people?What about Koreans who resisted Japanese colonial rule between 1910 and 1945? Would they have been terrorists too? Was it because of…Christianity? Confucianism? Buddhism? Shamanism? Or John Brown, who killed five people in 1856 and another 7 in 1859–did he have a violent nature because he was a Christian?

  • yasseryousufi

    FarnazMansouri,”A Muslim Mindset Exemplified on This ThreadHere, you see the yasseryousufi-type Muslim mindset.********************************************Hold your horses Farnaz~! I guess you think you’ve found a booty. Something to strike with on Islam’s underbelly. A catastrophe of huge proprtions all of 1500 years old. Well I hate to burst your bubble! Again! But wise men have said that a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all~! You’ve looked at this incident like a typical hatefilled jewish squatter. I suggest you type Banu Quraizah on wikipedia (hardly an organization that has any sympathy for muslim point of view!) and see if your 5 minutes of research teaches you something new. (Continued~!)

  • yasseryousufi

    I’ve had this discussion with a number of reactionary Jewish people before. Let me enlighten you a bit as well. Banu Quraizah lived in Medina during the time of Prophet Muhammad. They were a branch of a bigger Jewish tribe called Banu Aws. Banu Aws had a legendary enmity with a local Arab tribe called Banu Khazraj, which had spanned generations and killed many people on both sides. When Prophet Muhammad came to Medina, he ended this generations long enmity and the two tribes started living peacefully. (This btw is from wikipedia, not an Islamic website~!) Prophet Muhammad on a number of occasions sided with Banu Quraizah and got them more leniant terms in their agreement with their rival tribe. Now all the tribes of Medina had a pact which said that in the case of an attack on Medina all tribes and people of Medina will defend Medina as one. Let me quote you an exact clause from that agreement; “Jews having their religion and the Muslims having their religion excepting anyone who acts wrongfully and commits crime/acts treacherously/breaks an agreement, for he but slays himself and the people of his house”Some time after that the people of Mecca attacked Medina in an effort to finish Islam once and for all. But Banu Quraizah remained indifferent and didnt came to the aid of muslims in the Battle of Badar. Prophet Muhammad punished the rival tribe of Banu Quraizah but forgave Banu Quraizah for their treachery. After that there was another war called battle of Ahad and Banu Quraizah again remained indifferent in violation of their agreement. Once again they were forgiven whilst other smaller tribes who broke the pact were punished. Then the third time, the Meccans formed a huge coalition of all the major Arab tribes against islam from as far as abyssinia and muslims were outnumbered by 10 to 1. So the muslims decided to dig a trench around Medina instead of taking on the enemy. This time Banu Quraizah went a step further, they held open negotiations with the Meccans because they were convinced Muslims would be overwhelmed this time. They even told Meccans about locations from where they could enter Medina easily. Once again their plans failed and the Meccans left after a long failed siege.

  • yasseryousufi

    (continued from previous post~!)After that Banu Quraizah locked themselves up in a Castle and asked Prophet Muhammad to assign an arbitrator in their case. The Arbitrator wasn’t Prophet Muhammad himself but a former Jew by the name Sa’d ibn Mua’dh, whom Banu Quraizah themselves nominated. He was considered a wise old man and was on his deathbed, suffering from wounds he recieved in the battle. It was agreed that both side will surrender to the decree of the arbitrator. It was Saad who decreed that “the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives” It was the prevalent culture of those times and words had to be kept. No women or children or elderly were hurt. And yes Banu Quraizah brought it upon themselves through their constant scheming and treachery against the people who had actually helped them. So here you go, I doubt if it makes any difference to you or you’ll stop hating Islam. Thats beyond me. I’ll keep doing my job though, taking on your lies wherever you spew them~!

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    It really is wrong to blame an entire group for the act of one of its members. Google Kristallnacht to see how the Nazi government attacked all the German Jews on the basis of the act of a French Jew.I understand your point, and I empathize. However, the case in question was an excuse as we all know.Further, since, except for Israel, the Middle East has become nearly Judenrein, given the widespread circulation of the “Protocols” throughout the region, state-sponsored antisemtism in newspapers, TV, etc., given the anti-Jewish racist filth all over Muslim web sites, you might find a group other than Js for your analogies.—————————————-

  • sanja

    Patel,You would do a favor to God, individuals that are also Americans, individuals that are also Muslims etc, if you stop writing articles. You do not have what it takes at any level, and your pathetic and profitable “ketman” attitude is making me sick to my stomac. Go around, spread brotherly love, hug, peace out, whatever you do for living, just zip it.

  • zebra4

    DID THE EUROPEAN COLONIALISM INVENT TERRORISM?Jallianwala Bagh massacreThe Jallianwala Bagh Massacre (Hindi: जलियांवाला बाग़ हत्याकांड جلیانوالہ باغ Jallianwala Bāġa Hatyākāṇḍ), alternatively known as the Amritsar Massacre, was named after the Jallianwala Bagh (Garden) in the northern Indian city of Amritsar where, on April 13, 1919, 90 British Indian Army soldiers under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted for 10 to 15 minutes, until they ran out of ammunition.[1] Official British Raj sources placed the fatalities at 379, and with 1100 wounded.[2] Civil Surgeon Dr. Smith indicated that there were 1,526 casualties.[3]

  • Athena4

    When a white guy snaps and shoots up a place, the press calls it “going postal”. When a Moslem does it, people call it “jihad”. I’m not buying that this guy was a terrorist. He doesn’t fit the pattern of one. He does, however, fit the pattern of a lone wolf that snaps and goes postal.

  • jameschirico

    Three faiths revere the ritual sacrifice of Abraham’s child as an act that God approved. I for one believe any father that murders his innocent child is sick for any reason and man written holy books saying God approved is difficult to believe.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Three faiths revere the ritual sacrifice of Abraham’s child as an act that God approved. I for one believe any father that murders his innocent child is sick for any reason and man written holy books saying God approved is difficult to believe.Posted by: jameschirico |

  • crmla2fromIsrael

    Why all of terror acts are carried out by Muslims. The writer is distorts the things. In Islam there is no a compassion and mercy for Non-Muslim, Muhammad was a warlord who murdered Jews.95% of contemporary Muslims are exposed to anti-Semitic teachings. every Muslim learns chapters from the Quran that those who have incurred divine wrath are the Jews, and those who are astray are Christians. What is more problematic is that the average person learns this chapter and its interpretation between the ages of 5-8. And we know that things learned at this stage of life become ingrained, almost to the point of being in one’s DNA. When the shahid meets his Maker, all his sins are forgiven from the first gush of blood. He is exempted from the torments of the grave; he sees his place in Paradise, he is shielded from the great shock, and marries 72 Dark Eyed. He is a heavenly advocate for 70 members of his family, on his head is placed a crown of honor, one stone of which is worth more than all there is in this world.

  • eaglehawkaroundsince1937

    My God is better then your God, nah nah nah. This yellow brick religious road we are traveling down is getting mighty red, blood red.

  • zebra4

    DID EUROPEAN COLONIALISM INVENT TERRORISM ?FRENCH COLONIALISM: FROM WICKEPEDIAThe paradox of the massacres of 8 May 1945, is that when the heroic Algerian combatants returned from the fronts in Europe, Africa and elsewhere where they defended France’s honour and interests … the French administration fired on peaceful demonstrators,” Bouteflika said in a speech published by state media on Sunday. Colonial forces launched an air and ground offensive against several eastern cities, particularly Setif and Guelma, in response to anti-French riots, which killed some 100 Europeans. The crackdown lasted several days and according to the Algerian state left 45,000 people dead. European historians put the figure at between 15,000 and 20,000. It marks one of the darkest chapters in the history of Algeria and France, which ruled the North African country brutally from 1830 until 1962. France’s ambassador to Algeria said in February that the Setif massacre was an “inexcusable tragedy”. It was the most explicit comments by the French state on the event.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Sanja,”ketman”Apt. May I ask how you came upon this word? I am Iranian, but I haven’t heard it much among Americans. The truth of Patel slips out in his essays from time to time. Frankly, I’m not sure he’s aware of his own….I don’t quite know what to call it.

  • crmla2fromIsrael

    Allow me to give you a brief “Islam ” The first thing you need to know about Islam is the importance of the book of the Quran. The Quran is thought ot be Allah’s personal word, revealed by an angel to Mohammed, the prophet. This is where the trouble starts. Every word in the Quran is Allah’s word and, therefore, not open to discus-sion or interpretation. It is valid for every Muslim and for all times. Therefore, there is no such a thing as moderate Islam. Sure, there are a lot of moderate Muslims. But a moderate Islam is non-existent. The Quran calls for hatred, violence, submission, murder, and terror-ism. The Quran calls for Muslims to kill non-Muslims, to terrorize non-Muslims and to fulfill their duty to wage war: vio-lent jihad. Jihad is a duty for every Muslim, Islam is to rule the world by the sword. The Quran is clearly anti-Semitic, describing Jews as monkeys and pigs.. The Quran, as Allah’s own word and Mohammed as the perfect man are the two most important facets of Islam. Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion. Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins. But in its essence Islam is a political ideology. It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person. Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life. Islam means submission. Islam is not compatible with freedom and demo-cracy, because what it strives for is sharia. If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies. This is what you need to know about Islam, in order to understand what is going on in Europe. For millions of Muslims the Quran and the life of Mohammed are not 14 centuries old, but are an everyday reality, an ideal, that guide every aspect of their lives. Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam the most retrograde force in the world, and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    The genocide of the Quraza Jews as depicted in Quoran and Hadiths was a horror difficult to imagine, providing a blueprint for future acts of terror, mass murder, rape, murder of children in front of parents, etc. This has been the practice of Arab Muslims in Sudan and in many other countries.I have been trying to post on the Qurayza Jews rererencing both Quoran and the Hadiths, but keep getting blocked. Cannot even post link.Interesting.At all events, I’ll try again later. Should at least be able to give Quoranic and Hadith references.

  • yasseryousufi

    Take your time Farnaz~!Cheers!Yasser

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    yasseryousufi,Hold your horses Farnaz~! In the interim, you need to read much more widely about Islamic history. You need to comb through the Hadiths and get real.First, however, I recommend Rumi, Sadia the Mystic, and Hafiz. When you have your wits about you, summon your intellectual strength and read Maimonides, “A Guide for the Perplexed” (available on the web).Then get back to me.

  • dhraohr

    Americans by this time understand that Islam is evil to human society and America is offering them education seats,green cards,business, jobs in army also only to be killed by them.some may say it is aginest Islam etc, only to cover up Muslim misdeeds.Muslims preach and practice violence.it is matter of record in past and in present in all countries.wake up America.at least now try to know who is your friend or foe.pl don’t allow them in your system other wise you are gone gone.understand them

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    : crmla2fromIsrael,Thank you for mentioning the Banu Qurayza. I have raised this atrocity not only on this thread but on others on OnFaith. Somehow, it doesn’t seem to sink in that this was an actual historic event.A couple of other points: Quoran is virulently antiChristian. Moreover, it explicitly states that any who believe Jesus was the son of God are damned forever.Contemporary Muslims see Christians as idolatrous. Tolerant and secular Muslims don’t let this interfere with befriending Christians, but statues are not their thing. Interestingly, they seem to have more tolerance for Hindu statues than for Christian.

  • dnara

    The world will be so much more at peace when education spreads and religion is finally abrogated.How can a person with any level of education read any book of faith and not see the inconsistencies, holes, and brainwashing nature of it all? Do you think miracles only happened then, or because people had such a small world view, limited by information and education, believed anything that a person in a position of religious authority told them?Religion feeds on the poor of knowledge, and is reviled by the rich in history.

  • yasseryousufi

    ROFL~! you’re a sore loser. I never used a racist word. If you’re so touchy maybe you should watch what you write yourself. I got enough literary skills to lay bare all your lies. Maybe you yourself need to expand your knowldgebase. Openup your mind a bit. Stop hating people just coz there muslims. And stop trying being a Pacifist. You certainly aren’t one. Saadi and Hafiz were part of my coursework. I’ve read commentaries on their work in addition to reading it. But I dont go boasting around like you do. Now what else is it that you wanted to know about the Quraizah Jews………….??

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Ah, yasseryousufi, you did sound awfully undergraduate: your “course work.” Sweet.Read Rumi and Maimonides, as directed, and then get back to me.Later, when I have more time, I’ll try to post again on the Qurayza Jews. Get to your task, young sir.

  • yasseryousufi

    Ok Farnaz~! I can see this is your getout clause as usual. I doubt if you can ever come up with a reply. Your views are founded upon your hatred and hence have no legs to stand upon. You’re only good for your 5 minute anti islam rant. Have fun~!

  • yasseryousufi

    Banu Quraizah deserved what they got. They had a pact with muslims of Medina. They broke their pact and sided with the Kuffar’s of Mecca in the Battle of Trench to eliminate Islam. Their punishment was inline with the customs of that time. It wasn’t because they were Jewish~!

  • vortexusa2003

    What Patel says is well and good. The fact is that this murderer allegedly was yelling Alluhah Akhbar – something that we have heard too many times by other murderers.Until I see 3 million Muslims marching in the streets carrying signs that read “Not in my name”, I will be totally unconvinced.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Ok Farnaz~! I can see this is your getout clause as usual. I doubt if you can ever come up with a reply. Your views are founded upon your hatred and hence have no legs to stand upon. You’re only good for your 5 minute anti islam rant. Have fun~!Posted by: yasseryousufi Racism ill becomes you.Rumi and Maimonides. Stop wasting time.

  • crmla2fromIsrael

    A reminderA 24 years old Ngibolla Zazi an Afghan immigrant, planned a terrorist act by a mass destruction weapons, in New York City. On September 29, he was prosecuted and claimed not guilty. It’s a serious case. In his personal computer were find a planning that related to triacetone triperoxide, peroxyacetone(TATP,). It is an explosive was used in London Underground trainas attack . According to the indictment, he and other partners,bought large quantities of explosive components, and prepared the explosives In Colorado’s hotel. On September 9 he went from Coloradoto to New York. The police suspected him for carrying the explosive material to attack on 11 September anniversary. But surprisingly, he go back. it become a clear, that the Imam’s Queens, was an informer of the police and warned him that the police exceeded his trace. so he hurried to return. If this attack was carried out in a crowded place,it would hurt hundreds of people.On September 23, Michael Finton an American prisoner who was converted to Islam in prison and then went to Saudi Arabia. Hi was prosecuted for trying to blow up the federal building in Springfield, Alinoi. Finton parked a truck with a ton of explosives in front of the building, before get caught. He tried to activate the bomb using his cell phone, but fortunately , he was failed. Olso he planned to kidnap and murder a congressman. A Jordanian from Palestinian origin, was prosecuted on the intent to blow up a skyscraper in Dallas. Three Muslim men were prosecuted in North Carolina for planning to attack a Marines basis which is located in the United States.Can you tell me please, who are dangerous to the United States Jews or Muslims

  • yasseryousufi

    FarnazMansouri,”Again, best not to argue with your betters.”************************************************************************Keep repeating that~! wont make it true. When did I ever deny camel jockeys?? Thats another lie. How are the Camel Jockeys relevent to this discussion anyway?I can see Rumi and Maimonides havent made much difference to you. You still hate the religion of Rumi and his prophet.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF THE QURAYZA JEWSIf anyone is looking for a down-to-earth reason for Prophet Muhammad’s attack on all the affluent Jewish tribes such as Qurayza and Khaybar (instead of “Gabriel’s leadership”), then he does not need to look any further than verse- 33:27. After all, the Meccans and their allies withdrew (from seize of Medina at the battle of trench) without allowing Muslims to take their wealth. So how was Muhammad going to reward his 3,000 jihadists? He needed booty (wealth) to reward his jihadis. The prophet confiscated wealth of Jews to satisfy his greedy jihadis. He was following a bad custom of winner-take-all in seventh-century Arabia. It is a pity and shame that he could not rise above this, as the prophet for all of the world, the last and the best of all the prophets!” 1. The Holy Qur’an, Translated by A. Yousuf Ali, Published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, 1983

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: MASS MURDER OF THE QURAYZA JEWSThis article has delved with the most sensitive historical incidents happened more than 1400 years ago. Naturally, for correct history, we must depend upon the related sources: Quran, Hadisths and Islamic history recorded by famous biographers. In this article I have used authentic information from the above sources most scrupulously. I have used verses from holy Quran, number of related hadiths as found in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim; and from the life of Prophet Muhammad recorded by Ibn Ishaq in his word Sirat Rasul Allah available in the abridged edition of Ibn Hisham, and translated by A. Guillaume under the title The Life of Muhammad. This is by far the oldest (written) account of Prophet Muhammad’s life in regard to the date of its first composition.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF BANU QURAYZA JEWSAfter securing paragon beautiful Safiyaah daughter of Huyayy Prophet Muhammad has had sex with this young Safiyya in the tent, on their way back to Medina on the same night. Here is the precarious story: Merciful Prophet asked Bilal, the Negro crier of prayer to fetch Safiyyah to his (Muhammad’s) camp. Bilal brought Safiyyah and her cousin straight across the battlefield strewn with dead and close by the corpses of Kinana and his cousin. The two cousin sisters of Safiyyah shrieked in terror when they witnessed the grotesque scene of the slain dead bodies of their dearest relatives that they had to cross over. They tremulously begged a stone-hearted Bilal for mercy but to no avail. When they were brought to Muhammad, he cursed the panic-stricken cousins as devilish and cast his mantle around Safiyyah indicating that she was to be his own. Muhammad consoled a frustrated Dhiya by giving him Safiyyah’s cousin sisters. According to Ibn Sa’d Prophet Muhammad purchased Safiyyah from Dhiyah for seven camels (around US$ 2,450). On the same night (during the day her husband and all relatives were slaughtered) that Muhammad took possession of Safiyyah, he hastened to his tent to sleep with her. This was of course a holy character of Prophet of Islam!Here is what Ibn Sa’d writes: “-.when it was night, he entered a tent and she entered with him. Abu Ayyub came there and passed the night by the tent with a sword keeping his head at the tent. When it was morning and the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him.” To hide the lascivious character of Muhammad, Muslim biographers often mention that he married Safiyyahh before he slept with her. But they forget to mention that Muhammad did not follow the rule of waiting period (three monthly periods) to sleep with Safiyyahh. He slept with her in the same day she was captured.Above stories out of Sahi Hadiths clearly and undoubtedly have confirmed at least two things: (1) Prophet killed all those surrendered unarmed Jews in cold blood, (2) Prophet was attracted by Safiyya’s alluring beauty and he had sex with her (I really don’t care after marriage or before marriage) in a period when that poor Safiyya was in terrible grief by loosing her father, brother, husband and relatives and before the bloods of her relatives was even dry. By what yardstick can we measure the mercifulness and compassionateness of our Prophet? Could any Islamist tell me why Prophet of Islam had to set this terrible example?

  • zebra4

    Farnaz:I think you are not a bad person, you are just a little confused.I rember you claiming to be an athiest. What I am trying to understand is: Why do you care what medieval Jews did or did not do or what their beliefs or practices were?Shouldn’t all of us be concerned as to how we establish a peaceful world order? I don’t disagree that the past has implications for the present and the future but an atheiest shouldn’t care less what the belief systems were and that whether they were superior to other belief systems. Supposedly an atheiest does not believe in those otherwise she wouldn’t be an atheiest.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF BANU QURAYZA JEWS’Kinanah b. al-Rabi b. al-Huqyaq who had the treasure of B. Nadir was brought to the Messenger of God, who questioned him; but he denied knowing where it was. Then the messenger of God was brought a Jew who said to him, “I have seen Kinanah walk around this ruin every morning.” The Messenger of God said to Kinanah: “What do you say? If we find it in your possession, I will kill you.” “All right,” he answered. The Messenger of God commanded that the ruin should be dug up, and some of the treasure was extracted from it. Then he asked him for the rest of it. Kinanah refused to surrender it; so the Messenger of God gave orders concerning him to al-Zubayr b. al-‘Awwam, saying, “torture him until you root out what he has.” Al-Zubayr kept twirling his firestick in his breast until Kinanah almost expired; then the Messenger of God gave him to Muhammad b. Maslamah, who beheaded him to avenge his brother Mahmud b. Maslamah.”‘ Muir writes that then the heads of the two chiefs (Kinana and his cousin) were severed off. Because of the so-called treachery by the Jews for allegedly hiding their treasures, Muhammad now allowed the Muslim Jihadists to take possession of the women and children of the Jews of Khaybar. Allah’s Messenger occupied Jewish land:

  • silentvoices786

    no normal human being can support this kind of killing of innocent people.. and this is not a rational thinking that we link such kind of violent actions of a person link to whole religion or to whole group of people.. The conditions which army men are facing in Iraq, AFghanistan and any where else they always come back to home with many mental problems, we should have focus on the reasons which can force some one for such kind of violance any time any where…

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz, I have to say your cut and paste research is pretty unimpressive and mostly incoherent! Didnt I explained in detail that the reason for the punishment of Quraizah Jews was their own treachery and unfaithfulness? If it were for their wealth why would they have been tolerated for so long? you’re the perfect example of a little bit knowledge being more dangerous. With regards to the Hadiths there are plenty of them that are misquoted, taken out of context or plain untrue~! The fact of the matter is Jews used to live all over the Arabian peninsula and still continue to live there. Its just 2 cities they are denied entry along with any other non muslim. The treachery of Banu Quaraizah probably had something to with it. There’s also a story of Jews poisoning Prophet Muhammad, which your fellow jewish poster FOR-RUNNER alludes to in his post in this blog. So yea there’s a reason for everything.

  • yasseryousufi

    crmla2fromIsrael,More than 10,000 Muslims serve the United States Army, prepared to give the ultimate sacrifice, like Kareem Rashad Sultan Muhammad who was cited by Colin Powell in his nomination speech of Barack Obama. There was a muslim guy who gave his life immidiately after the 9/11 attack trying to save his fellow americans.If the idea is to pick random examples and create hatred for an already marginalized people, it is regretable indeed specially coming from a Jewish woman. If that be the case how do you justify Israel torpedoing and firing at a US vessel for several hours eventually drowining it killing 31 US Sailors and wounding dozens of others? Keeping in mind the staunch support US gives Israel however grave its crimes maybe. Why does Israel have the need to put spies in American secret facilities? Where do the loyalties of AIPAC blackmailers really lie? Its not with America, we all know that.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: SLAUGHTER OF THE QURAYZA JEWSDistribution of war booty in Khaybar: Sahi Buchari Hadiths #143, page-700: Sulaiman Ibne Harb…Aannas Ibne Malek (ra) narrated, “in the war of Khayber after the inhabitants of Banu Nadir were surrendered, Allah’s apostle killed all the able/adult men, and he (prophet) took all women and children as captives (Ghani mateer maal).. Among the captives Safiyya Bint Huyy Akhtab was taken by Allah’s Apostle as booty whom He married after freeing her and her freedom was her Mahr.”At first Dihyah al-Kalbi, a Muslim Jihadist asked for Safiyyah. But when Muhammad saw the unparallel beauty of her, he chosen her for himself and gave her two cousin sisters to Dihyah.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWSWhat really happened to Jews in KHAYBAR?Merciful prophet of Islam in his campaign of eradicating all the Jewish tribes (who were most prosperous and rich) from around Medina, he conquered Jewish tribe of Khaybar in May, 628CE. This was a preemptive surprise attack (Gazzowa) or a sudden and unprovoked assault on the Jews of Khaybar. This was a decisive victory for Muslims. The Jews lost ninety-three (93) men while the loss on the Muslim side was only nineteen (19) men. Muhammad took some Khaybar Jews as captives, including Safiyyah bt. Huyayy b. Akhtab, an exquisitely pretty young newly married bride of Kinanah b. al-Rabi b. al-Huqayq. She was the daughter of B. Nadir chief, Huayy b. Akhtab who was beheaded by Muhammad during the slaughtering of B. Qurayzah. Kinanah had recently married Safiyyah, the young, vivacious and pouted daughter of Huyayy and had received a good treasure trove as gift. Muhammad also took two daughters of Safiyaah’s paternal uncle.

  • CalSailor

    Part 1When a person commits to military service, he or she cannot know what the future may hold. You may be fortunate to serve in a time of peace, or may be called to battle in a time of war. Apparently, when Maj Hasan started medical school, before 9/11, he had no special indication what the future would be in the military. After 9/11, it became clear that the focus for the future was going to be in the Middle East. Given that reality, Maj Hasan found himself in a difficult situation. One that he resolved in the worst possible way. Are there a whole constellation of issues that contributed? Absolutely! Could he have done something else? Absolutely! Did the Army as an institution contribute to the situation? Yes. Is the ultimate responsibility for the carnage Maj Hasan’s alone? Yes.Some of the background:1. Maj Hasan incurred obligated service in return for education. Officers, especially, experience obligated service issues for a whole number of reasons, including: education, acceptance of promotion, change of station, etc. Sometimes, the result is that an officer is committed longer than a defined contract, such as enlisteds have, that means they will spend years in uniform. The problem for the army in all this is: according to the family, Maj Hasan wanted out, and offered to repay the training expenses, but the army said no. In fairness to the army, they had an investment in his education, and mental health professionals are difficult to recruit and retain, they are in extreme demand given the war and the stresses of combat, and the army is not easily going to let one go. In addition, if you make getting out too easy, people will “take the [training] and run”. Question for the army in the future: should there be some sort of exception that would allow some to get out with repayment, and how difficult does the army make it? How does one balance the needs of the army and the needs of the individual?Pr Chris

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS

  • CalSailor

    Part 2 2. Major Hasan was a specialist in “disaster psychology”, which means that he dealt daily with patients reliving the worst experiences of their lives, of things they have seen and perhaps done, that have created extreme guilt, rage, fear, etc. Even vicariously, this is an extremely difficult field of psychiatry.Questions for the army: How much exposure to this can the individual counselor undergo without becoming a psychiatric basket case himself? What procedures does the army have, or what should be instituted to decompress these experiences for the counselors? What are the considerations that must be evaluated to have some indications of whether the counselor is approaching a crisis? How does the army prevent the next one?3. Major Hasan’s personality was of a man who was quiet, and kept to himself. He was also single, without family. Not having a family is not disqualifying, nor is prefering to keep to one’s own interests. Starting investigations on people because they don’t go to the bar with the co-workers is also not a valid method. Questions for the army: relating to the topic above, how can the army make sure that the counselor has a sufficient support network to be able to process what he or she is confronted with each day? Maj Hasan apparently had no support network. Without assuming all single counselors are a threat, how does the army help counselors find support opportunities? Traditionally psychiatrists themselves go through psychiatric therapy as part of their training. Does something like this need to continue? How do the professionals in a command help each other? And what does the army do to compel counselors to seek/accept help? How does the system do that and keep the integrity of the promotion system, and without betraying personal rights of the professional?Pr Chris

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS

  • CalSailor

    Part 22. Major Hasan was a specialist in “disaster psychology”, which means that he dealt daily with patients reliving the worst experiences of their lives, of things they have seen and perhaps done, that have created extreme guilt, rage, fear, etc. Even vicariously, this is an extremely difficult field of psychiatry.Questions for the army: How much exposure to this can the individual counselor undergo without becoming a psychiatric basket case himself? What procedures does the army have, or what should be instituted to decompress these experiences for the counselors? What are the considerations that must be evaluated to have some indications of whether the counselor is approaching a crisis? How does the army prevent the next one?3. Major Hasan’s personality was of a man who was quiet, and kept to himself. He was also single, without family. Not having a family is not disqualifying, nor is prefering to keep to one’s own interests. Starting investigations on people because they don’t go to the bar with the co-workers is also not a valid method. Questions for the army: relating to the topic above, how can the army make sure that the counselor has a sufficient support network to be able to process what he or she is confronted with each day? Maj Hasan apparently had no support network. Without assuming all single counselors are a threat, how does the army help counselors find support opportunities? Traditionally psychiatrists themselves go through psychiatric therapy as part of their training. Does something like this need to continue? How do the professionals in a command help each other? And what does the army do to compel counselors to seek/accept help? How does the system do that and keep the integrity of the promotion system, and without betraying personal rights of the professional?Pr Chris

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWS

  • arminius3142

    Well, Farnaz, ya never misses a chance, does ya, to vomit yer bigotry?A horrendous murder, by an obvious psycho, and you immediately take it as a launching pad for your endless hatred.You remind me so very much of CCNL – both of you loathe Islam, and both of you want Christianity to be castrated.You are despicable.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAZA JEWS

  • FamillePetersen

    You will know a tree by its fruit. The fruit of Islam is revealed primarily in the countries where it is the predominant world view. Judge for yourself, is there freedom of conscience in Muslim countries? Or rather imprisonment and fear for those who practice other religions? The answer is obvious.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWSThis next hadith indicates that a woman was delirious. She was killed.

  • robertjames1

    Xenophobia and bigotry give rise to the strongest and angriest of emotions which often lead to violence. Those feelings preclude rational, calm thought. America’s feelings towards Moslems have often been uncompromising and vicious. They are based on the unsupported assumption that Moslems want to bring down the US and that they are necessarily terrorists.In the 1960s, similar feelings were directed towards black people when they wanted to ride in the front of the bus, vote and otherwise have equal rights. America’s KKK (a brutal, unintelligent and cowardly organisation) attacked black people because they were different.My neighbours are Moslems and they are decent people.

  • yasseryousufi

    Why dont you send the whole book farnaz~! It’ll take eternity to read all this gibberish you’re posting. Take a deep breath girl~! Let it go~! Stop embarrasing yourself!

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    The genocide the Banu Qurayza Jews, well-documented in both Quroan and Hadiths, provides a blueprint for mass murders of today.”According to “Sirat-a-Rasul” (page 464) by Ibn Ishaq the story goes as follows:IN DETAIL

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    CONTINUED: THE GENOCIDE OF THE QURAYZA JEWSSa’d bin Mu’adh was the leader of a large Medinan tribe, the Aws (or Aus), some of whom favored old alliances with the Jews. The leader was an elderly man who was seriously wounded in the battle of trench (Source: Ibn Ishaq, p. 462; Watt, Muhammad at Medina, pp. 188-89; 214-17). Sa’d gave the verdict that, “that all the able-bodied (adult) male persons belonging to the tribe should be killed, women and children taken prisoners and their wealth divided among the Muslim fighters.” Compassionate Prophet Muhammad answers in endorsement of this: “You have given the judgement of Allah above the seven heavens…”, (Source: Ibn Ishaq, pp. 463-64; Tabari vol. 8, p. 34).To separate adult men from the pre-pubescent boys, the youngsters were examined and if they had grown any pubic hair, it was enough to behead them (Abu Dawud; see Ibn Ishaq, p. 466)..The apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz is in a trance I guess~! She’s in another world!

  • yasseryousufi

    I gotta go sleep now. If you can Farnaz, try writing an abridged version of whatever this is you’re posting. You wouldnt expect me to read all that even though its Sunday tommorow~!

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    YASSERYOUSUFI,I’ve spent a signifcant amount of time on you, in hopes that some of your Jew hatred might let up.I think you have a long, long way to go. You cannot simply assert that camel racing doesn’t exist, that little boys aren’t sold, kidnapped for the sport, to anyone, let alone an academic who works with UNICEF.Similarly, you cannot deny the horrible history of the Qurayza Jews, then bait her, until she must post that which she knows will embarrass you even more than your calling the horror of kidnapped, enslaved camel racing boys fiction, only to find yourself confronted with sources.Ditto the enslaved three million Christians forced from generation to generation to clean out sewers with their fingers.The child prostitutes, etc.RACISM will get you nowhere. Neither will you win this with name calling. If you continue on this absurd path, you’ll destroy whatever potential you have, whatever possible allies you may find.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    JJ:Did Ye know that Mr. MUHHAMAD & CO; commited a “God is Great” HOLOCAUST (Zoroastrian SHOAH) that makes Mr. Hitler & Sir Stalin, Blush!?JJ, the problem, IMO, is religion itself. Who knows what Jews might have done had they gotten into the conversion industry like the Muslims or the Christians? Had they attained the numbers of the Hindus?

  • tbarksdl

    Eboo Patel once more constructs a straw man and then pummels it to death. The issue is not whether Islam encourages or justifies murder. The issue is this: first, religion per se encourages a murderous mentality. Second, the more separated a religion becomes from reality, the more fanaticism it nurtures among its adherents. So, by these criteria, what do we have at Fort Stewart? — A person deep in the grip of religious fervor.Just a few of the facts that support the above conclusion:– Islam treats women little better than chattelPatel is engaging in deliberate misrepresentation when he tries to separate the killer’s acts from his religion.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Keep repeating that~! wont make it true. When did I ever deny camel jockeys?? Thats another lie. “yasseryousufi,Dont you get tired of this done to death joke? How’s your organ harvesting buisness going in Newyork btw? I heard those of Palestinian children give the best return.Posted by: yasseryousufi | November 7, 2009 12:40 AM

  • johng1

    I see the number of rational minds is few here. Until religion fades from human life experience, crazy thinking will prevail. We keep it at bay somewhat well here in the U.S., but it still rages in the most violent parts of the world. For now, I see the only solution is to try to ignore and exclude the crazies from our global interaction, and to constantly be on the watch both domestically and elsewhere. Finally, many may atom bombs must be aimed at all these countries, along with the express intent on destroying the entire planet if they sen one our way. This is the only band aid until we all reject religious foolishness.The end

  • CalSailor

    Part 34. Maj Hasan objected vocally and on more than one occasion to the war, and to the theatre of the war. Had the war been in say, Central America, or Japan, he would probably not have had the issues he apparently did. At what point do his objections and arguments begin to have significance? How do colleagues raise the question of significance, without putting themselves in the path of an angry individual, or at the same time, without destroying somone else’s career over what is perhaps a misunderstanding. The army has a saying: A contented soldier is a [griping] soldier. A soldier who doesn’t complain is of concern. Griping over assignments, duties, food, etc., is normal. When does it become abnormal?Question for the army: How do we deal with those who are so disgruntled that they need to be dealt with, and at the same time, not destroy people’s careers over a passing gripe?5. Did Maj Hasan have any alternatives? Yes, but none of them were probably very palatable: a. Act so negatively that he fails of promotion, or is otherwise discharged as not in the army’s best interests to retain. Having been promoted to Maj, it will be 5 years or more before he even comes up for Lt Col, and for a Medical Officer, Maj is fairly routine promotion (achieved by something in excess of 90%) so he would have had to be flagged perhaps a couple of years ago. Five or 6 years would probably have seemed like forever to Maj Hasan, when faced with orders. Also, in a time of little job hiring in the civilian world, he may not have felt that he could get a job had he gotten out of the army under less than a decent discharge.b. He could have objected to his deployment, loudly and often, and generally made such an issue that his command would have pulled his orders and had him re-evaluated. The problem with this, like the option of failing out, is what this does to any further career, inside or outside of the army. Being tagged enough of a malcontent that one gets out of orders to a war theatre is not a good career move. c. Failing all else, he could have simply not reported for movement and gone AWOL. AWOL becomes desertion, and, if you are gone long enough, you’ll be arrested at some point and court-martialed. But again, he could not have been sure that the army would have discharged him. Without his true name and credentials, getting any sort of civilian job would have seemed very difficult. Pr Chris

  • CalSailor

    Part 4Bottom line: Maj Hasan, rightly or not, felt completely trapped. He blew up. He chose the worst possible way of resolving his issues. How much his religion played a role is for the investigations to determine. Like anyone of any sort of belief structure, it played a role, perhaps THE dominent role. Based on what I have read, I am not sure which of the issues in his life caused him to go off the deep end and act out as he did. I do know that no one can blame a religion for the actions of its members. Right now, Islam is getting blamed for ANY actions of any of its adherents. The day after the Ft Hood shootings, a Hispanic sur-named man shot up a worksite in Florida. In the two days after the Ft Hood shooting, there were murders involving service members at Camp Lejeune, and another Army base. In none of these three instances were the person’s religion tagged as the reasons for their actions. All you can say about Islam and Maj Hasan was that HIS interpretation of Islam was one of the factors that led to the worst disaster in US military history. My prayers and condolances for the victims of Ft. Hood, and their families and friends. May those injured be granted swift healing and the families of the fallen be consoled in their time of grief.Pr Chris

  • coloradodog

    Comes now Franaz, quick to accuse others of anti-Semeticism, while spewing her hatred of Muslims. How typical of a follower of Abraham.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    CalSailor,well…i don’t think in those cases the killer shouted any religious slogans as they killed people.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    A Muslim Mindset Exemplified on This ThreadBanu Quraizah deserved what they got. They had a pact with muslims of Medina. They broke their pact and sided with the Kuffar’s of Mecca in the Battle of Trench to eliminate Islam. Their punishment was inline with the customs of that time. It wasn’t because they were Jewish~!Posted by: yasseryousufi”They deserved what they got.” They had done nothing. What they got was genocide, parents and children murdered in front of each other, rape, selling into slavery. One of the earliest Muslim genocides, this Quoranic one, a historical fact, one of the earliest blueprints for the genocides, the WTCs, the seizure and destruction of schools, all the terrorism that has followed for the last two thousand years. Simple murderers.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Can you tell me please, who are dangerous to the United States Jews or MuslimsPosted by: crmla2fromIsrael

  • clearthinking1

    Eboo the great obfuscator writes:Islam is based on the Koran, not Eboo Patel’s identity crisis.What’s scary is the similarities between apologists for Islam and terrorism like Eboo Patel and Major Hasan. Like Eboo, Hasan also pretended to be an American who wanted to serve the community while being a true Muslim. Unfortuantely, Islam = violence; read the Koran and read history.

  • nanda1

    Navin1 – I don’t know what Church you’ve ever gone to, but in my long life I’ve never heard any references to Egyptians. Think you’ve been seeing too many movies.

  • RONR4

    JAMESCHIRICO posted: “Three faiths revere the ritual sacrifice of Abraham’s child as an act that God approved. I for one believe any father that murders his innocent child is sick for any reason and man written holy books saying God approved is difficult to believe.”FARNAZ1MANSOURI1 replied: “In fairness, I have to say that only the Christian God did this, sending his Son to be tortured to death, incriminating humanity for all time.”In actuality, Abraham never sacrificed Isaac. God provided a ram trapped in a thicket to be the sacrifice. In this can be foreseen the actual work of God’s Son, Jesus Christ. He willingly came to die to save His people. He did not incriminate anyone. Rather, He redeemed those for whom He died – He took on Himself the punishment for the sins (crimes against God) of His people. His was the supreme sacrifice. He gave up all that He had to come to earth in utmost humility, to live a perfectly sin-free life and to endure God’s just punishment for sin so that all who believe in Him might not have to endure God’s wrath and eternal alienation from God’s love and grace.

  • Martial

    It really is wrong to blame an entire group for the act of one of its members. Google Kristallnacht to see how the Nazi government attacked all the German Jews on the basis of the act of a French Jew.

  • pkhenry

    The news is dominated nearly every day by Islamic terrorism in one corner of the world or another.Wake up.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    He gave up all that He had to come to earth in utmost humility, to live a perfectly sin-free life and to endure God’s just punishment for sin so that all who believe in Him might not have to endure God’s wrath and eternal alienation from God’s love and grace.Posted by: RONR4 | November 7, 2009 12:08 PM This monstrous view of the deity, which has, in part, but only in part been incorporsted into Islam, accounts for two thousand years of mass murder, genocide, etc., of numerous peoples. We now see the work of these folks’ theological heirs. Mohammad was the last prophet, the final word. The last word.

  • Martial

    We don’t know much about the major idiot. But if a group keeps saying we are not responsible for the actions of the few, soon you get a Nazi takeover. Then people say, we didn’t know it was going to get that bad. Eventually the group has to take responsibility for the individual. Every Friday in mosque the muslims learn that god hates non believers, etc. Every sunday christians learn that god hates the egyptians an idolators. Some day, these people will learn to hate a hateful god and stop reading their books worshiping a god of hate. But alas, they keep rationalizing, it wasn’t us so the fact that it was done in our name is not my responsibility. And you get major idiots killing young people volunteering to help their country.It is time to have no proxy saviors, no last prophets, no books between you and god.hariumPOSTED BY: NAVIN1 | NOVEMBER 6, 2009 8:51 PM ____________Father Coughlin did the same thing in the US, talking about the Jewish mass murder of millions of Christians! You can read Father Coughlin’s filth in his book “Am I an antisemite?”, available free on the internet. Let’s not repeat such acts in the name of protecting America. It is beneath those of us who love this country and the freedoms for which she stands.

  • yasseryousufi

    walter-in-fallschurch,”you can’t really think this?! jews commit 10 times the moral atrocities of muslims?!”Well Im sorry, I should have said 100 times. Just go and check the ratio of innocent women and children Israel has killed in Palestine wrt to similar atrocities committed by the Palestinians~!

  • Martial

    walter-in-fallschurch,”you can’t really think this?! jews commit 10 times the moral atrocities of muslims?!”Well Im sorry, I should have said 100 times. Just go and check the ratio of innocent women and children Israel has killed in Palestine wrt to similar atrocities committed by the Palestinians~!POSTED BY: YASSERYOUSUFI | NOVEMBER 7, 2009 12:28 AM __________Why not check the ratio of Muslims to Jews in our prisons?

  • nanda1

    Let’s get down to basics here. Islam is NOT a religion, it’s a murderous CULT. Mohammed came crashing out of the desert, probably strung out on hashhish, almost 7 centuries after the birth of Christ. He took total control of tribes who had no alternative. And, it’s gotten worse ever since. If you think these people have Free Will, then you haven’t witnessed the Hajj. The word “assassin” derives from hashhish. The Whirling Dervishes” were not the product of the Vatican, but of Islam and lots of hashhish. The “Mad Mullahs” were not Buddhists, but Islamists. Islam is tribal madness. I always remember one soldier in Afghanistan saying we were “going to bomb them up to the 8th century”. Islam twists and turns in its attempt for legitimacy by claiming Abraham as its “father”. How? That’s the claim that has everyone laughing. I think Abraham pre-dated Mohammed by 3,000 years. I doubt that Muslims can ever enter the Modern World. They know that. That’s why they want to destroy it.

  • yasseryousufi

    FarnazMansouri,You’re obviously a closed minded hard nut, So its only muslim fighting Jews, Christians, Hindus etc?? Common sense tells us that people who live side by side often develop differences some of which are framed by religous preferences as well. So we have Hindus wiping out whole villages of Christians and Muslims in India. Christians killing their fellow Christians and Jews in Europe and Africa.So one guy basically snapped and took down his co-workers with him. It wouldn’t even have been news in america coz it happens so often. Yours is a violent society. People do carry guns along with them at all times and when they are thinking about taking their own lives the more violent ones tend to take others with them. The only reason this is being blown out of proportions is because this guy happened to be a Muslim. I guess one cant argue with the cynics~! They can keep hating all they want. reasonable people know religion has nothing to do with this.

  • dsrobins

    Eboo Patel is not a Muslim. He’s a Hindu. Hindu children are taught from birth to hate Muslimas and kill them whenever possible. He has no right and no ability to say who is a Muslim and who is not.

  • yasseryousufi

    FarnazMansouri1,”yasseryousufi,Dont you get tired of this done to death joke? How’s your organ harvesting buisness going in Newyork btw? I heard those of Palestinian children give the best return.

  • edbyronadams

    No matter how you want to massage it, Islam is a religion that divides. Others do it as well. Saved or damned. In the tribe or out. But nobody has the divisiveness inherent in Islam, with admonitions on how to treat other religionists, how to tax them, how to try them in a court of law.This divisiveness is a direct contributor to the sick mindset of people like Maj. Hasan. He was not acting as a good Muslim by the majority of Muslim adherents but Mohammed left a legacy in which his actions could easily be interpreted and self interpreted to be holy.How large a segment of of Muslims think that his actions are justified remains unknown but similar actions by Muslims across the globe make it certain that they are not beliefs held by a tiny minority.

  • garrafa10

    “So can I also ask you explain why the 5 million Iraqi children had to die because of the US sponsored embargoes? and add to that another million who died in the war fought on a pack of lies? What about the thousands dead in Afghanistan? what about the Bosnian Muslims? Chechens? Kashmiris? Palestinians? Mindanao? Again, spare us the moral high ground crap. If we were to take an eye for eye, you guys would have been blown up 10 times over~!Posted by: yasseryousufi”Stop sniveling for your precious Chechens, Bosniaks, Kashmiris, and now Mindanao. The world is quickly tiring of the lies and apologetic analogies that Salafists like you are so fond of making. If it were actually an eye for an eye, there would be no Muslims left alive that were not at forced labor.

  • yasseryousufi

    Martial,”Why not check the ratio of Muslims to Jews in our prisons?” Why dont you help me out? lets hear that ratio. I do know muslims generally have better jobs and higher standard of living than average americans~!

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasseryousufi,You are wrong about camel races, which take place throughout the Middle East, not merely in the UAE, which has signed off on them. Go to the UNICEF web site. Again, they take place all over the Middle East. I disagree with you about Banu Qurayza, as you will have gathered from my post.You will not agree with me on this; however, I believe that a good place to start in the quest for world peace would be the elimination of religion. Religion has played a part in the Iraq/Afghanistan genocide, and, not a very subtle part, at that. Wedded to nation states and power, it imperils all of us. Eliminating it, or at lest safeguarding the rights of those of us who wish to be free FROM it would be a step in the right direction.It would not end greed. Look at Bangaladesh.That said, the elimination of religion, the ability to be free FROM it, purging our legislatures of it, would eliminate one smokescreen with which we could all live without. FarnazPS. I know you don’t like “peacemaking” gestures, so let me assure you, this is not one. I cannot see how you can be a “Sufi” without reading Rumi. Maimonides is good for the mind.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Catholic Whistiling, ColoradoDog, is a good place to start. He is an anti-Jewish racist, and he hates Muslims, too. He loathes them, considers them less than dirt.Beware, lest you end up like him. And look at him, Dog. Have you seen anything uglier?An ugly Christian/American. Do you want to be that?

  • ravitchn

    So Maj. Hasan didn’t want to kill fellow Muslims? Well there were Irish Catholics on both sides of our American Civil War. In World Wars Catholics have fought Catholics, Protetants Protestant, and Jews have fought Jews. Why are Muslims not the same? Anyway, Muslims have enjoyed killing other Muslims right from the beginning, just ask a Shiite about the Sunnis.

  • ThisIsReality

    Patel says “But a Muslim did not do this.” Wrong. Face the facts, a Muslim did it.

  • yasseryousufi

    FarnazMAnsouri,I do not deny the evil practice of having children as Camel Jockeys persists in the dark alleys of the rich sheikhs of UAE. They pick up the most weakest and lightest kid so that the Camel does not have to carry too much weight, thats why the Jockeys are between 5-12 years old. The reason they prefer Children is because when the camel runs these children cry as hard as they can which in turn makes the Camel run faster. Most of these children return after serious mental problems, some even die during the races. These shaikhs pay hundreds of thousands of rupees to the poor families of these children. No one in his right mind can condone this action. Its a crime~! It needs to be punished in the strictest possible terms. But criminals are everywhere. It has NOTHING to do with islam or muslims in general except from the fact that the criminals happen to be muslims. These races only take place at nights in some secret locations. The way you putup this question I thought you were repeating stereotypical joke of Arab = Muslim = Camel Jockey. I aint no arab, we are south asians and very different from arabs but I think in the context my reply which you quoted sounds really stupid. So yea……my apoligies for that.Regarding the Banu Quraizah Jews, I skimmed through all your posts~! They delve into details which are debateable. But can we agree on the chain of events I posted earlier that:1. Banu Quraizah made a pact with rest of the population of Medina to safeguard Medina in case of an attack.2. That the punishment of breaking that pledge was exactly what Banu Quraizah got.3. That Banu Quraizah broke their pledge not once but trice having been forgiven the first two times.4. That the third time round Banu Quraizah infact openly conspired with the enemies of Islam who came to finish off Islam once and for all, with the hope that Muslims would certainly be overwhelmed this time round.5 That the arbitrator after Banu Quraizah lost the war to muslims was not Prophet Muhammad but a Former Jewish wise old man by the name Saad Bin Maaz whom Banu Quraizah themselves asked to arbitrate. Had Banu Quraizah trusted the Prophet of Allah, they would have certainly been spared.Let me know if you disagree with any of these points, then I’ll attempt to prove them.

  • muawiyah

    What a strange body of comments on this thread. Tried to read them from end to beginning, and beginning to end and alas, there was the same lack of meaning all the way through.It’s pretty obvious that we have a nutcase psychiatrist on our hands. At the same time he could very well have been directed to undertake this violent action by a third-party who has not yet been identified ~ but who will be identified.After all, it’s usually the case that Moslem terrorists seek out mentally ill people, the retarded, and those faced with death penalties anyway to carry the personal suicide bombs to areas where they can kill the innocent.Easy to believe Hasan was told to do this to become a martyr so he could die and go to Heaven with whatever passes for “glory” in Islam.Now, was Hasan still a Moslem when he attacked and murdered those people?The answer is “Of Course” ~ Fur Shur he wasn’t a Methodist, a Hindu, a Sikh, a…… you name it. At this period of time in history when this sort of thing happens you pretty well know what the killer’s religious preferences are.Jus’ the way it is. I don’t think any of us expect anything better out of these guys until they’ve turned to shooting each other up.

  • slim2

    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duct, then it obviously is a duck.

  • AgentG

    Mr. Patel has ignored the fact that neither he nor anyone else is endowed with the authority to claim who is a Muslim and who is not. The perpetrator of this crime certainly felt he was a Muslim and was part of a Muslim community that was not a figment of his imagination. Therefore Mr. Patel’s worries about how Muslims will be perceived and his efforts to exclude the unseemley elements from the Muslim identity appear miguided and futile. Instead of addressing us, the public at large, perhaps he should focus his efforts more on Muslim introspection and reform, starting with a cold-hard look at the facts, which indicate that many Muslims are unable to deal constructively with the failures of their perceived Islamic civilization. We must understand why Islam somehow engenders a humiliation that all too often leads to violence as the only available and justifiable escape in the eyes of terrorists.Furthermore, the reaction described by Mr. Patel, primariy a concern for how Muslims will be viewed in light of this tragic incident, reflects a deep insecurity that appears linked to a lack of empathy and consideration on their part. Again this could be another face of engrained victimhood, a narrative that is only self-destructive and promotes radical behavior. I respectfully submit that the Islamic world is deeply in need of a reformation into a modern conception of identity, gender roles, citizenship, and individual liberty, along with freedom of thought and religion.

  • ihatelogins

    This is what is wrong with Muslims in America. Instead of looking at their religion or fellow Muslims with a critical eye, they just dismiss everyone who does something bad as ‘not muslim’, as if they can determine that. It’s sad, it’s pathetic, and it’s counterproductive.

  • RichardHode

    Of course he was a moslem, Patel. Don’t be an imbecile trying to twist facts. It’s not unusual to see moslems kill each other like rabid dogs; it happens every day in the moslem cesspools of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Don’t you read the papers or watch the news?

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,I’ll admit I havent read Rumi, but I am a follower of the Sufi path.He is AMAZING to read, beautiful, moral, spiritual. Not difficult.Maimonides is good for the web.Farnaz

  • Nymous

    When people hate about religion they end up harming their own religious framework.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,Should have written: Maimonides is good for the MIND. (Cannot get used to wearing glasses)

  • DwightCollins

    in the end hasan used religion as an excuse to kill…

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    yasseryousufiOne person who I have been most influenced by is Hazrat Inayat Khan, who incidently used to live in USA.He often cites Rumi in his works. Reading Rumi is fundamental. On camel racing, two things: the UAE signed an international agreement to ban the use of little boy jockeys. The UAE is not the problem. This horror goes on throughout the Middle East. Efforts are being made, however, in Egypt, to prevent the selling of little boys from poor families, and/or their kidnapping.In many other countries, e.g., Pakistan and Bangaladesh, nothing is being done. Nothing is being done either to rescue the 200,000 little girl prostitutes in Bnagaladesh. Some young Pakistani students are desperately trying to stop the horrors visited on the Christians. They haven’t gotten far, but they aren’t giving up.Religions, all religions, are ideological. They are wedded to nation states and used by the wealthy and powerful to exploit the masses and, in some cases, for imperialist ends.If religion could be separated from nation states, separated entirely, I would be more optimistic. HOwever, I see little possibility of that happening.

  • Alert2

    Hasan followed Qur’an 9:111, which says:“Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden (Paradise) will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain”Also:And:Eboo Patel is Lying (Taqiyya and Kitman):

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz, Thank you~! I do believe that all religions including even Hinduism, Buddhism etc are inter connected and come from the same concept of the God, YHWEH, Allah~! This is the message of all the sufi’s. This is the little game God plays with us. If he wanted he would have revealed the truth. But he wants us to exercise our minds, look at the signs, choose the best path and then be answerable for our actions~!Im glad that we’ve come to respect each others opinions. I tend to get carried away sometimes, but I usually have good manners. Im sad at some of the things I wrote. But one learns something new everyday and its all good as long as we learn our lessons~!Shalom~!

  • okaidioff

    Mr Patel, Germans don’t say that Hitler, Himmler and Gestapo were not German. Similarly Nidal Hasan was Muslim. So are the Saudis who don’t let woman drive a car, and the Taliban, and the Chechnya rebels that killed 350 russian students.

  • johnBap

    Right wing, and zionist zealots(who burned gaza children with white phospherous, check goldstone report about war crimes committed by israel in gaza, and was condemed in the

  • Chops2

    He “is not a true Muslim”:Yes he is and i’m sick of hearing this garbage. U cant disown someone when they flip out. Theres plenty of horrors in the Koran, bible etc that give loons justification for sick acts.Amazing that millions of people think they can talk to god yet he tells some people some things and others other things. Are they actually talking to him or just making it up in their twisted little heads?The latter clearly….or god is a bald faced liar.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Im glad that we’ve come to respect each others opinions. I tend to get carried away sometimes, but I usually have good manners. Im sad at some of the things I wrote. But one learns something new everyday and its all good as long as we learn our lessons~!Salaam!

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    YasserYousoufi,My previous post was meant for you.

  • yasseryousufi

    FarnazMansouri,The message of all Sufi saints is essentially the same. Be it Rumi, Hazrat Inayat, Bhullay Shah, Mansoor Hallaj etc, when you reach a certain level of spirituality the mysteries of the world that maybe mysteries for lesser mortals like us, are revealed unto them~!Girl prostitution racquets are active all over the world. Its big buisness in Europe as well as US. Why stick to Bangladesh. India is probably even worse. Its despicable~! But Bangladesh is one of the few countries I’ve visited and I can say its moving forward in the right direction. Atleast thats the impression I got in the 3 days I stayed there. They’ve got a better literacy rate than Pakistan and have brought down their population growth rate significantly. They also have other development indicators going in the right direction. But yea poverty is a problem. So many people to feed with so little resources~! I guess it would wrong to hold their society with the same standards of those of yours in New York.Christians as a minority are a bit sidelined in Pakistan. But believe me they belong in all the stratas of the society and not just “cleaning sewers”. Thats an over generalisation~! Christians have reserved seats in the Parliament, quota in government jobs wrt to their population and never ever would you hear them being vilified like muslims get vilified in American and European Media. Those Christians who get educated can get into jobs they want. All the Christians who become sweepers used to be low caste hindus before they were converted to Christianity by the missionaries when the British came. Most of them never changed their life styles. So yea a majority of sweepers here are Christians, but its not by design. They can change their destiny if they want. Or maybe their rich co-religionists in Europe and America can also help them.So what do you think about Israel? should it also shed its religous identity? give equal opportunity to Palestinians and become a secular country?

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,There are Christians who are not sweepers, in Pakistan. However, being a Christian in Pakistan is unenviable, I assure you.The number of Christian sweepers is often given at over one million. HOwever, my Pakistani friends, all of whom are in a position to know given their professions, tell me the number is much higher. There are also many Hindu sweepers. This is a human rights issue as you know.The situation in Bangaladesh is worse.As matters stand, I see no hope whatsoever for the Israelis and Palestinians. I believe this conflict has less hope of ending than Kasmir. It will not end. There is no point in resuming “negotiations.” Abbas cannot even defend his troops from Hamas attacks. The will for peace no longer exists on either side. It’s over. Done. The only possibility for world peace resides in the severing of nation state from religion. That, however, would be only a beginning. Hindus and Muslims are killing each other in the streets. Muslims are second-class citizens in India, although some of them have done very well. What motivated the Mumbai massacre? We know.Religion itself must disappear. Withdrawing it from the public realm, secularism will not provide the answer.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser, You are right about child prostitution. It is a blight on humanity and is all over the world.If only everyone could spend one day in Bangaladesh. Just one day. Human misery so intense it is almost unbearable to see. It is unbearable. The violence is unimaginable. Parents must arm their children to send them to school.I work a bit with UNICEF. I sometimes ask myself what the point is.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yassser,Re: BangaladeshI, too, have been to Bangaladesh, travelled extensively. It is a horror, unimaginable. If you’ve been following the activities of the new prime minister, you know that massive violence is imminent. I understand her feelings, but this cycle once begun will never end.By the time food, which is supposed to go to the poor, arrives in Bangaladesh, it is inedible. Supposed to be distributed free, it is sold. People eat it anyway, get sick. Some die. To preserve fish, chemical sprays are used that also cause illness. There is no modern refrigeration. The population is far, far from under control. People are squatting across the Indian border, and the Indian border patrol are not treating them well.Excesses of Bangaladeshi grain are bought up and stored by Indian merchants, bought back in times of shortages, and sold at exorbitant prices.As is the case with all third-world countries, a few wealthy families have a stranglehold on the nation.God help the Bangaladeshi people. They have a tremendous commitment to learning and literacy, yes. But they are dying of hunger, dying from violence, dying. And then there ae the Bangaladeshi Christian sweepers.

  • John74

    “But a Muslim did not do this.” This an asinine statement by Mr. Patel. It sure wasn’t a Scientologist shooting unarmed victims on Fort Hood! A few muslims decry these incidents AFTER the fact but are not doing much to prevent them. I keep hearing a lot of excuses, such as the hasan was harassed for being a muslim but I don’t see the evidence. Hasan is a murderous muslim terrorist. Period.

  • cleancut77

    He was acting in accordance with his faith. He was as true a Muslim as Mohammed. Islam was born of violence, utilized violence in its spread, and exhorts its followers to violence.Trying peddling “he wasn’t a true muslim” to those who haven’t read the Koran. I am not buying it.

  • ravitchn

    Every time a Muslim commits an atrocity we are told by the politically correct that he wasn’t a “real” Muslim. Where are the real Muslims? The ones we know are the terrorists.

  • dave19

    Hasan was not a Muslim? He not only was a ‘devout’ Muslim who studied the Koran and distributed copies of it, and even tried lecturing fellow doctors on it and its mandate to either ‘convert’ ALL Infidels, or KILL them. Sure there are millions of peaceful Muslims but there are millions more who chose to follow the most militant interpretation of that faith and specific ‘commandments’ of the Koran:Right from the Koran9.5-6: “Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find4.76: “Those who believe fight in the cause of God…”8.12: “I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,8.39-42: “Say to the Infidels: If they desist from their unbelief,2.256: “But they who believe, and who fly their country, and fight in8.15, 16: “Believers, when you meet the unbelievers preparing for9.39: “If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and putBy the way, there are many who have studied Islam and argue that, since Islam was born in and remains violent, it is the BAD Muslims who ignore the versus above! Sure Christianity in its earliest days was violent – the Crusades. But we grew out of it, to the point of speratating non-violent Church from often-violent State. Islam never did!!!

  • SteveofCaley

    I read:The problem is whenever someone “of faith” does something like this “the faith” disowns them and distances themselves from them. Up to this moment you would have claimed them as a brother in Islam or Christianity, etc. Either they are your brother or notEach creed defines its dogma, what one believes in, to a stricter or laxer degree.  Christians often refer to the Tridentine Creed for orthodoxy. Each of the three Semitic religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam – forbid hating in the name of God, for they all recognize the Commandments:

  • Chip_M

    hariuam wrote: “There are killers that are muslim, there are killers that are christian, there are killers that are buddhists, and killers that are atheists.No one man speaks for a religion (positively or negatively) but each man has the right to his religion. Even a murderer. This man is a muslim.”I couldn’t agree more. To the fundamentalist the liberal is not a true Christian, Muslim, Jew, or whatever other religion. To the liberal, the fundamentalist has it all wrong. Both are being self-serving and ignoring the vagueness of scripture that allows such wide disparities in interpretation. The pacifist and the violent bigot can each cite scripture to back up their position as the “real” one. This has always been and will always be a fundamental flaw of religion as a basis for moral systems, and why a humanist morality based on empathy and equality will always remain superior. As soon as there’s an “us” and a “them” moral systems break down. While I understand and empathize with the desire peaceable Muslims have to distance themselves from the acts of the violent minority, this man was as Muslim as any other, just as the abortion clinic bomber is as Christian as the liberal pacifist. When tribal systems are used as a measure of humanity, dehumanization of the “other” is the inevitable result.

  • LadyChurchillUSA

    This is garbage, of course he is a true muslim this “peaceful religion” is murdering thousands across the planet and to pretend that it isn’t just leads to more lambs being led to the slaughter. Until Islam offers a reformation movement as every other major religion has in denouncing violence, all these protestations should fall on deaf ears.

  • FedUpIndian

    Mr. Patel says “a Muslim did not do this”. While it is good to know that Mr. Patel condemns this act, we should believe Patel and his fellow Muslims are sincere in their desire for peace only when they acknowledge that these kinds of animals are indeed Muslims, and start to reform the rotten soul of Islam to bring it from the 7th century into the 21st century. Until then, spare us this “a Muslim did not do this” nonsense. What was he? A Zoroastrian? However, all is not lost – I can agree with Mr. Patel on one thing. He states:”What is even more important is to state clearly what Islam stands for.” I couldn’t agree with Patel more.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Comes now Franaz, quick to accuse others of anti-Semeticism, while spewing her hatred of Muslims. How typical of a follower of Abraham.Posted by: coloradodog |I spent time responding to you, explaining that it was difficult for me to take your apology seriously since you had just repeated the same behavior.And, here you go again. I don’t have time for you. You are a grown man, while Yassir is young, and, it would seem, already better educated.I am not a “follower of Abraham,” nor is anyone else. (What would we follow?) You, however, appear to be quite typical of some followers of the NT, they who brought genocide to the world.YOu are confused, very. You do not know yourself, and you are ill-equipped to follow the chat Yasser and I have been having.Concentrate on your self. Look at the dead and injured at Fort Hood. Ask how, historically, you and many of your NT imperialism, genociding in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc., might have played in to all of this.Hasan is a very sick man. He did what he did for complex motives. But you and your followers played a part.The mirror, Dog, is the place you should start.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    As another blogger pointed out, Eboo is using the “no true Scotsman fallacly.”From Wikipedia: “No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy where the meaning of a term is ad hoc redefined to make a desired assertion about it true. It is a type of self-sealing argument.”This false argument has, throughout the centuries, been more typically used by the Christians. “How could he call himself a Christians, and do something like that? Christianity is the religion of love.”By this reasoning, the Pilgrims, and their governor William Bradford, the Puritans and their Governor John Winthrop, of Massachusetts Bay Colony, they who risked everything for religious freedom, were not Christians, since they committed crimes against humanity (justifying them as Christians).Of course, he was a Muslim, and he, in part, was motivated by his beliefs. HOWEVER, being a Muslim was a necessary, NOT sufficient cause for him to act as he did.His motives were complex. He was mentally decompensating. How is it that no one saw the signs? What, then, does the religion factor say? What does history tell us? Aside from the fact that our history in the Middle East, the US genocide in Iraq and Afghanistan, for which we paved the way with our support of Zia, Osama, the Taliban, has and will cost us, it tells us we would all be better off without religion.Frankly, I believe freedom FROM religion, from legislating vaticans, from legislating Fundies, for example, is a basic human right. Americans deserve freedom FROM religion as much as the people of Pakistan do.It is a basic human right, one which the UN should take up.

  • yasseryousufi

    …..sorry~! I meant George Galloway

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,”Im interested in listening what is your take regarding 2nd generation Pakistanis being drawn to radical Islam. Why do you think it is happening?”Are you being coy? Have you been to England?

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,Re: Cunningham’s analysis of HasanThis is very much to the point. There is no evidence, whatsoever, to label him as a terrorist. This is one frightened woman. Fear and ignorance combined are dangerous matters.Everything thus far known suggests that he was part of no plot. The very last thing we need anywhere now is hysteria.

  • Mary_Cunningham

    You are a bad person, Farnaz1Mansouri1.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,I possibly cannot see how someone working as a sweeper can be a human rights issue. I guess most people working in Newyork would either be blacks or hispanics. It all depends upon the skill set you develop throughout your life. If those people do not get educated, themselves aren’t willing to change their destinies, you cannot expect them to be hired as Doctors, Lawyers, CEO’s etc by the government. In a perfect world one would wish no one has to clean sewers and everyone lives happily but that doesn’t look likely the case in the distant future and till then someone will have to do the work. But if you think that religion or government is somehow responsible for that or whether it is binding, I think your over zealous Pakistani friends are misguiding you. Same goes probably for the Christians of Bangladesh. I do not like criticizing religions, but hinduism did have a caste system. These dark skinned christians are infact the aborigines of India. When Aryans from the North conquered India, they introduced a religion based on caste system to keep the locals under control and made them all untouchables responsible for doing the cleaning jobs, skinning dead animals etc. over thousands of years, its become their life style. Some of them have broken the shackles, but many still stick to thier old lifestyle. Maybe the UNICEF people can build an industry here that hires only christians. I dont think the government would have any objection to that. You say you see no hope for the resolution of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. I am very much interested in knowing your perspective regarding the reason for it. What is it that the Palestinians must do that they havent already done so that they can live with honor and dignity alongside the state of Israel?There is abject poverty in Bangladesh, there’s no denying that. Very little development took place in the areas that comprised Bangladesh during the muslim rule of India and even during the British. It was on the outskirts of the vast Indian empire. Even when it was part of Pakistan, they continued to be neglected by the powerbase in Islamabad, thats one of the reasons they separated. So they had to begin from the scratch when they got liberated from us. But they have a lot of things going their way that bedevil Pakistan. For one the Bangladeshis are mostly one people, Bengalis, unlike Pakistan. They ae certainly a more secular society with a hindu Rabindarnath Tagore being their National Hero. So religous extremism wouldn’t seep through as easily as it did in Pakistan. With respect to violence, these people fight with sticks and knives. They dont have gun culture as it is prevalent in Pakistan where weapons are mas produced in the tribal areas and where everyone carries a gun. And finally they dont occupy a strategic position that Pakistan does so they are spared a lot of western influence which can be only good.With regards to the round 2, Cant wait for it to begin :0) J/K

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Yasser:Re: the attraction of 2nd gen Pakistani migrants to radical Islam in Britain Interesting question. I have a few ideas but I’ll think about them and respond tomorrow.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    You are a bad person, Farnaz1Mansouri1.Posted by: Mary_Cunningham | November 9, 2009 2:55 PMYou are an indefensible bigot, obsessed with one Jewish blogger, antisemitic, and terrified of Muslims. You are, in fact, an evil menace.I tried with you, despite your dishonesty and bigotry, but failed, and, neither comment on your posts, unless their offensiveness makes it impossible for me to do otherwise, nor comment on you.You, however, cannot refrain from dragging my name into your remarks, slandering me, particularly, when I’m not blogging. This sort of speech is condemned in all religions. It is, considered evil. It is addressed in the Psalms and elsewhere.At times, I happen to log on when you are in the midst of one of your hate fests, as you have been today, and, like now, you disappear. HOw could you do otherwise? What defense is there for what you do?I have no need to blog about you either in your absence or in your presence. Would you had the simple self-restraint to do likewise. Stereotype and OT away. Just leave us Js alone.If you believe in sin, you surely know you have been guilty on this blog of several that are considered serious. You are far, far more sinning than you could ever be sinned against.Still, if dishonest you has nothing better to focus on than me, go ahead. I suppose that in a way it’s flattering.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz, hi again~!Yea well looks like im getting plenty of attention~! But its all good. Mary Cunningham speaks respectfully to me. And i’ll continue to respond in kind to her. Im nobody to prejudge anyone. Me myself being pretty imperfect. I saw the video link you sent. To be honest I was surprised that you would recommend such amateurish work. Its a bunch students with a handycam doing some non-serious commentary. I dont why you think their work has any credibility. FAST is a pretty mediocre university here anyway. If this was there final project or something, God help them.I’ve never been to England :o), I already mentioned that. My query was in response to the discussion I was having with Mary where she said the 2nd generation Irish were somehow betteroff than Muslims. What did you have in your mind?Well I just saw the news and it says Hassan is out of his comma and is talking now. It’ll be pretty interesting to hear what he says with all this home grown terror hype going around news channels these days. Lets see if he was indeed a terrorist or just a sick human being.I’ll admit I dont have much knowledge what the current PM of Bangladesh is upto. I do know that she is closer to India, being the daughter of Mujeeb and with her in power its not good news for Pakistan. But apart from that I dont know much. Maybe if you can give me a hint ill try to respond.Well the sweepers issue wont go away easily I guess. Im assuming you have pretty strong views on that. But really I’ve said what I said. It is not the Government policy in anyway to make Christians sweepers. I explained you they have been doing this work for generations. I went to a Catholic Missionary School. Its one of the best in the city. I’ve studied with Christian kids. They get special privileges in these schools. And they come from all backgrounds. But most of them run off from schools. They start drinking at a young age, form a music band or something. Plus the tend to make friends with Christians mostly. Im not kidding with regards to sweepers developing skill set. Most under priviledged people have these vocational training institutes run by NGO’s that they can go to. I don’t why I am unable to explain to you that no one is forcing them to be sweepers, neither is anyone forcing them to take up any other job. I dont know whats the issue here?I am in Karachi, the biggest city of Pakistan and the most cosmopolitan as well. At school I had Christians, Hindus, Parsis and even Chinese classmates. So I prolly have more insight into their cultures as opposed to people from say Lahore or Islamabad.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    They dont have gun culture as it is prevalent in Pakistan where weapons are mas produced in the tribal areas and where everyone carries a gun. And finally they dont occupy a strategic position that Pakistan does so they are spared a lot of western influence which can be only good.Children go to school WITH GUNS. They are a high priority.India’s role in Bangaladesh’s suffering cannot be ignored.Again, Abbas cannot prevent Hamas from firing on his troops. There is no one to negotiate with. Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis have the will to peace or believe that it can be maintained.Hamas will not recognize Israel, and even if it did, the recognition would be as meaningless as Arafat’s. The Israeli people, as I posted before, believe they were horribly mislead. They actually voted in Netanyahu over the enormously popular Livni. This very left-leaning country has swung to the right. After the attacks on Sharon on the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock and the ensuing intifada, hope ended. The left could not make their voices hear, felt betrayed by the Palestinians they’d trusted. They’re trying again, but their numbers are smaller, and they cannot win over the moderates. There is no sizable will among the Israelis.In the meantime, Hamas is not only radicalizing but terrorizing. Thus far, it seems that they are not corrupt in the way Abbas’ party is. Had the Palestinians accepted the Clinton accords, not begun the intifada, there would have been a Palestine for several years now.As I posted earlier, notwithstanding what Pakistan has done to Kasmir, and that is not good, notwithstanding recent events, hope for a settlement there is far stronger than hope for peace among the Israelis and Palistinians.I’ve long thought the beginning of the end of the world would begin there.I know this topic interests you, but for me it is agonizing, and I don’t like to blog on it. I have Palestinian Christians and Muslim frinds as well as Israeli friends. We are friends in common, although the Palestinian Christain and Palestinian Muslims have a little difficulty with one another. Interesting.The complexity of these relations are difficult. It is painful, horrible. Two peoples, both despised, both extraordinary in many ways, destroying one another and themselves.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,Lets see if he was indeed a terrorist or just a sick human being.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,We dont have dalits in Pakistan~! Most Pakistanis dont even know what a dalit is. Im all for the Christians getting a better deal and I admit their situation is not ideal. But as you yourself have pointed Pakistan is going through a tough phase (Frankly I dont even remember when we were NOT going through a tough phase~!), so the Government is mostly focused on saving its own skin. Well you’re right Israel/Palestine issue is the one I feel strongly about. But its 2 in the morning here and I’ll go to sleep after this post. Maybe tommorow, if this blog is still open ill express my views on this issue.So you’ve been to Karachi~! Thats cool! did you like the city? I dont think there are many attractions for the tourists here. I bet you liked the food though??

  • yasseryousufi

    Oh and on Bangladesh, school kids carrying guns?? Thats news to me. The Bengalis seemed very maleable people to me. I dont think violence is as prevalent over there as it is here. There aren’t any Pashtun’s like me there :o). Well I actually had shock when I reached Dhaka. I was hoping it would be one big slum, but what I found wasn’t much different from Karachi. I have mostly good memories from there. Loved the Pineapples~!

  • daniel12

    Unfortunately this just brings more and more forward the question of whether Muslims–really anyone who takes religion in a fundamentalist manner–are compatible with the separation of church and state that is modern Western democracy. I mean after all, here we have a person who entered the U.S. military, but then when it became time to test just how much this person would be loyal to the U.S. he turned against the military, wanted out. Then although he was supposedly against violence (saying he was against the war) he had no problem killing Americans. A conflict was created in him whether he would be a moderate Muslim and on the side of democracy and separation of church and state or an Islamic fundamentalist and he chose Islamic fundamentalism. What makes it all the more stark is that he witnessed every day the evidence of battle inflicted on U.S. soldiers by Islamic extremists and still he had no problem killing U.S. soldiers. This just increases the problem between the West and Islam.

  • daniel12

    I have difficulty accepting when the majority of Muslims–the moderates–say the terrorists are not real Muslims and that they, the majority Muslims, are the real Muslims and should not experience problems such as profiling at airports, etc. The majority Muslims are quick to point out that the terrorists are relatively few in Islamic society but that just puts the majority Muslims in a more difficult position, because if the terrorists are so few, and the majority of Muslims are moderate, then why are there terrorists at all? Should not the moderate Muslims have overwhelmed and imprisoned the terroristic Muslims by now? In a Western society the more violent people are clearly fewer, clearly a minority. And the majority in Western society does not tolerate violence from such people at all. In Islamic society, however, we have constant cries from the majority of Muslims that they should not be confused with the terrorists, but the moderate Muslims do nothing, do not police their society with regard to such people. This just makes us wonder if there are really moderate Muslims at all. Certainly the view of Patel that societies should become more diverse–filled with various religions, races, ethnic groups,–multiculturality in a word–is a disastrous view. Say for example one dislikes the Evangelical Christians in American society. Adding to such people various religions, etc. does not result in diversity, multiculturality, but conflict. The only solution is for religions to be dismissed and for races to mix and for people to give up their ethnic group identity. Certainly this is what has made America strong. For example, I am of French, Austrian, English, Irish and Dutch descent. But do I identify with any of those countries? No. And although I am Catholic do I stress such? No. As for race, the faster the race mixing the better. This is what it means to be American. Patel does not understand that at all.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,So you’ve been to Karachi~! Thats cool! did you like the city? I dont think there are many attractions for the tourists here. I bet you liked the food though??

  • yasseryousufi

    Daniel12, just a simple question~! There are 10,000 muslims in the US army. Many of them have given the ultimate sacrifice, others have served with honor as well returning with medals for their bravery. What do your muslim hating priests and tele evangelist say about them? What part of Islam is their motivation to serve america? And dont you ever go around educated people telling them the separation of state and church crap in america. George Bush said he was ordered by God to attack Iraq and kill millions in his dream~!

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Dr Patel:You say Maj. Hasan acted alone and, hence, his act was not typical of Muslims. He was not typical of all Muslims, granted, but his was a typical Muslim act, or an act typical of Islamic terror.It would come from within: from our own community of Muslims. Three sons of Pakistani migrants (in demographic speak, second generation Britons) plus one 2nd generation African Caribbean convert descended into the tube (subway) and detonated themselves plus 52 others, bringing the city to a standstill and terror to its inhabitants. The next year an assortment of immigrants and the children of Pakistani immigrants attempted to blow up 10 airplanes en route to the US. The following year Muslim Indian migrants attempt to nail bomb two London nightclubs.Now, as I see it, the differences between Islamist and the IRA terror are:• the warnings: the IRA always phoned in warnings with enough time to evacuate the targeted transport. In contrast, Islamists favoured surprise attacks, and the more mayhem the better. Nail bombing a nightclub, Dr Patel—I ask you, how barbaric is that?• the terrorists’ country of origin: IRA terrorists came from outside the British mainland, from Northern Ireland. Irish who lived in Scotland, England, and Wales were not involved in the terror. Islamists, in contrasts, were inhabitants—can’t really call them citizens, can we?—of the country they brutalized.So you see Dr. Hasan fits the profile of British Islamists terrorists. That is the context in which he acted. He might have acted alone, but his divided loyalties between his host country and his religion were similar to Muslim terrorists in Britain. He is thus not a special case. . You seem to be a good man, but you need to face up to the situation. You are in denial if you continue to assert Maj. Hasan was insane. He was as sane as the Indian Muslims, doctors all who attempted to wreck the most painful of injuries on their targets.

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Dear Yasser Yousufi,I have noted your posts and they are eloquent and sincere. You remind me of my Muslim friends here in London. As well, I have ‘met’ Muslims on the web and unlike, say Farnaz1Mansouri1 who *hates* Catholics, really hates them, (and me, because I am one, she has called me every insult she can find, running the gamut of bigot to zealot and back again, with a detour for Satanic and racist) my Muslim web ‘acquaintances’ have been equally sincere and courteous.This is not my debate really, is it? So I won’t hang around overmuch, but I did want to contact you.Yours sincerely,

  • yasseryousufi

    Dear Mary Cunningham,Thank you for your kind words~! I havent been lucky enough to visit UK as yet but I do know a bit abou what you’re talking about. I once saw a documentary regarding extremism in young British Muslims. I have to say I was horrified to hear the views of those people in it. To be honest I was also angry at the UK government. How can they let people like Anjum Chaudhry and Abu Qatada preach hatred and ask Pakistan to crack down on extremists here. I saw those “Behead those who insult Islam” signs on TV and they are as repulsive to us as they are to you. I have no idea what kind of leadership they follow. When the British Government tried to complain that 3 of the bombers were 2nd or 3rd generation Pakistanis our government rightfully told them to take care of their own babies. These people were born, bred and educated in Britain. They probably visited Pakistan just once or twice in their lifetime, if they were radicalized that radicalization happened back in UK not in Pakistan. I remember it was during the same time a boxer of Pakistani origin won the only gold medal in olympic boxing for England and he was being hailed as the next best thing and future of british boxing. So what I am saying is you cant keep the gold medalist boxer for yourself and handover those bombers to us. They are both your babies. And if you do not crack down on the extremists over there its not Pakistan’s problem. I remember this guy who killed Daniel Pearl and gave a bad name to Pakistan round the world too was a British born, LSE Graduate. As long as you allow Anjum Chaudhry’s and Hizbul Tahrir Fanatics (Hizbul Tahrir btw is banned in Pakistan) to preach with impunity you will see disenfranchised youths being plucked out of their marginalised environs. And keep in mind these preachers of hatred have plenty of ammunition in hand, with UK involved in 2 brutal wars responsible for the death of more than a million muslims and absolute destruction of 2 countries. So they can easily brainwash these kids by telling them stories of brutality of western soldiers. There’s a small cottage industry of muslim extremists throughout Europe. The make brilliant propaganda movies, I mean those that can really boil you blood. Ive seen some of those and believe me they can easily affect the minds of an ignorant muslim youth.So yea……its time to act now. You dont have to start a witchhunt. Most of the radicals of UK are well known. You have to nab them as soon as you can. Throw out that radical Nazir Ahmed who you have made a member of House of Lords. It seems to me he spends more time in Pakistan giving speeches in support of Taliban and exhorting the Pakistan govrment sitting beside Jamat-e-Islaimi radicals.Well I guess you’ve kinda stuck a raw nerve with me. Its an issue I feel passionately about. I would love to hear more from you~!Yasser~!

  • zebra4

    WmarkW : “Here is Islam” and then your post describes what the psychiatrist did in his presentations.Are you nuts? You can’t distinguish between what an individual did and what the faith says?Did you read several articles on what Islam says about such things right here on the top in the religion section?Bigotry and hate are blind.

  • zebra4

    WmarkW : “There’s Islam, here Eboo” and then your post describes what the psychiatrist did in his presentations.Are you nuts? You can’t distinguish between what an individual did and what the faith says?Did you read several articles on what Islam says about such things right here on the top in the religion section?Bigotry and hate are blind.

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Yasser,Well, it’s not so hard understanding what happened with British born Islamists and those who turned to terror.I did some post graduate research on assimilation of second generation migrants (the children of immigrants). Problems of identity are highest with this group. They don’t know *what* or who they are—in my children’s case, for example: were they British, English, Irish, Scots? Born here, of course, with British nationality, but their mother is Irish. They look the same as *native’ English whatever that should look like, but you can’t tell English from Irish looks—not really—and in any case their father is a Scot. They speak with English accents. What they all clung to was their religious identity as Catholics ,distinct from the indigenous Anglican community, and this is also what the children of Muslim immigrants did and do. And what Major Hasan—another second generation migrant with identity problems—did.Regarding the radical preachers, you forget we have a very strong “human rights” lawyering lobby–Cherie Blair was one such lawyer–and so long as these preachers don’t incite to riot and violence (in the case at Westminster Cathedral the radicals were clearly intimidating the free exercise of religious worship)they are not breaking the law. In any case, these radicals have been well exposed and have been quiet lately, oh, since the 2007 and the failed nailbombing plot. The Labour Party, who failed to inhibit these men, is also due to lose power come spring and the Conservatives promise to be much tougher.

  • halozcel1

    Hizb ut Tahrir was founded by MI5 such as Al Jazeera Television.Dear Mary Cunningham,Nearly one year ago,you were writing *Jamil,you have wonderful(Alice in Wonderland)/perfect religion(islam)*,but,nowadays you are posting *migrants and islam together make horrible action etc.*Dear IRA supporter,Yasser/asizk,You are making Theological and Historical mistakes.-Mansoor Hallaj had said *I am Allah*(?)Was he islamic saint ? (it seems to me,Saint is Idiosyncraticlly christian title/term,it ought to not used for muslims)

  • Mary_Cunningham

    You are an odd fellow, Halozel and as offensive as Farnaz1Mansouri1 (maybe you are her) and as false. I was not posting a year ago, but earlier. I did post to Jihadist, a Muslim from Malaya. I am not an IRA supporter and never have been, I lived in London throughout the IRA bombings.If you could read you might see that the Catholic tradition in England since, well, 1604 renounced violence. Wasn’t really effective, was it?The difference between Mary Tudor and Elizabeth was that Mary was courageous and believed in her religion. Elizabeth believed only in power and switched back and forth, as whichever was more favourable to her. Elizabeth also started her reign by killing Catholics whilst Mary began by offering amnesty. Elizabeth had a lot more time to persecute Catholics, that’s what you like about her, isn’t it?This is all from me to you. I very much dislike you and all you stand for, and although

  • Mary_Cunningham

    PS And I never posted to anyone named Jamil. What religion are you, Hellish-o-zell? Hindu nationalist? German Protestant evangelical? Jewish? Or just generally offensive? And illiterate.(Is there such a religion?)

  • yasseryousufi

    Mary,I agree with most of your analysis~! The muslims youths of Britain certainly feel like they are an unwanted lot in the country they’re born in. They cannot come back and settle in Pakistan. These angry youths are easy fodder for the prying eyes of hate preachers. They make these kids feel somehow importants. But lets be honest Mary, out of thousands of disenfranchised British Muslim youths we’re talking of probably a dozen or so who have actually takenup terrorism to express their hatred for the society. Its in no way comparable to IRA. There is no recognized body in UK which is calling for places to be bombed over there. With regards to Maj. Hasan, I think its a bit premature to label him a terrorist and not a deeply pained sick man. There was another article on On Faith by someone name Thistlewaite, who herself provided counselling to troubled housewives and said she had to quit her job after a while because it was getting to become unbearable. This guy was supposed to heal PTSD people. One of the things he was supposed to do was listen to the stories that these returning soldiers had to tell. And we all know that they wouldnt have been good stories. Imagine a soldier telling you how he opened fire on a car which didnt stop at the checkpost only to find out it was filled with women and children and they were taking a pregnant woman to hospital and they are all dead. Imagine listening these kind of stories day in and day out for years. In the Army you dont have the choice of quitting your job at your own will. On the top of that he may have been subjected to racist jokes. We dont know the whole story but why only concentrate on him being a terrorist. I remember there was another shooting in Virginia Tech by a Korean student who like hasan was a loner and took down as many of his co students as hasan did, probably a girl as well who he had liked. Im hoping Hasan comes back from comma. I for one would really like to hear his story.

  • Athena4

    I think that Mary has a point. It’s often the children of immigrants that wind up getting into trouble – whether they’re Irish Catholics, Arab Moslems, or Salvadorans joining MS-13. I think it’s because the parents struggled to make a better life for their kids, but the kids feel torn between the “old country” ways and the Western ways. So, they reject the West and turn to a romanticized version of what the “old country” was. When the last great wave of immigrants came to the U.S. in the early 1900’s, their children didn’t really have a chance to get this romanticed version of the Old Country – they were fighting WWI and WWII in it. Unfortunately, I have to stand corrected in my earlier assertion that Nidal went postal. Recent news reports are saying that he was into radical Islam.

  • yasseryousufi

    Halozcel1/or whoever else you are,Hussain bin Mansoor Al-Hallaj was an exception even amongst Sufi’s most of whom were considered heretics by mainstream Islam. He is probably the most complex character one could come across if you read his poetry. He never actually said I am Allah he said “An-al-Haq” which translated to English mean I am the Truth. The people and the King of that time certainly thought as you did. But over a period of time when people began to understand his poetry they realised he was so much in love with Allah that everywhere he saw he saw Allah. He saw Allah in all the creations of Nature. Be it the rivers, the desert, the mountains and one day deep into his meditation he realised that if Allah is around everywhere he is probably inside him to. Thats when he chanted An-Al-Haq. Really its a deep spiritual matter. Most Sufi’s who came after him did not consider that he was declaring himself to be Allah. Infact Rumi, the most well known Sufi poet considered Mansur his teacher. With regards to Banu Quraizah what makes you think your opinion counts?? I have written in detail the actual chain of events that led to the fate Banu Quraizah met in my discussion with Farnaz. If you challenge them i’ll be glad to prove you wrong. But my point in debating historical events in never scoring cheap brownie points. Im usually looking for mutual understanding. If you can convince me with your logic i’ll be the first to admit it. I think your last question is pretty stupid one which i’ll prefer to pass~!

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Yasser,re: the children of Pakistani migrants. They’re not disenfranchised, far from it. They vote Labour!And let’s not push the IRA analogy too far. (You don’t want to get into Irish and Northern Irish history with me!) What I was trying to show was that almost *no* 2nd generation Irish migrants in Britain supported the IRA, whilst many 2nd generation Pakistani migrants are very much drawn to radical Islam (although not terrorism, I agree with you on that). In this they have probably been stupidly encouraged by a politically correct, cowardly Labour government.

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Athena,What is interesting–at least in Britain–was that Irish migrants abandoned their ‘Irishness’ much more readily than their religion, which they clung to. And it seems the same thing has occured with Pakistani and Bengladeshi migrants. They are no longer Pakistani nationals, but they are as firmly Muslim as ever, more firmly actually. The women in Britain who wear the hijab are mostly young women born here. A friend told me there are more headscarfs in London than in Lahore.

  • coloradodog

    Farnaz, your hatred of me is not harming me at all but is consuming you.

  • yasseryousufi

    Mary,I dont see the reason why these radicalised youth would wanna vote for the party that launched two brutal wars that these people consider war on Islam. I frankly dont think they are part of the election process unless they have a chance to vote for George Halloway. Well I never proposed the IRA analogy anyway~! I dont even think its a valid analogy. Its a completely different set of circumstances. There is no Muslim army so to say. No organization that calls for bombing. Im interested in listening what is your take regarding 2nd generation Pakistanis being drawn to radical Islam. Why do you think it is happening?

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Coloradodog:Farnaz, your hatred of me is not harming me at all but is consuming you.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Hi Yasser,”See if you can impact the Public Policy makers of Pakustan!”LOL! Not likely. The work I do for UNICEF is largely volunteer, although not always. I was dragged into it kicking and screaming by friends of mine, co-nationals of yours.The Dalit of Asia aren’t a high priority of UNICEF or of anyone else. That would be the bad news. The better news is that the situation is slowly changing, fear of offending India notwithstanding. Last year the first international conference on “untouchability” was held in London. Indian Dalit academics in the US have published books and articles.If you clicked on the link to Human Rights Watch, you see that the “sweepers” of South Asia have at long last made it on their radar.Some of my friends would know of your department, I’m sure, btw. I will email them on it.As for tribal connections, anything is possible, I suppose! However, the prevailing view in Israel is that the Ethiopian Jews are the Tribe of Benjamin. They came to Israel’s attention in the early eighties when the Ethopians were undergoing horrific oppression stemming from their refusal to give up their faith and way of life. After Israeli scholars, rabbis, et al, had interviewed them, traced their oral narratives, found unmistakable consistency with Tanakh, it was determined that they were, in fact, Jews, most likely Benjaminites. Many thousands of them were airlifted to Israel throughout the eighties and nineties. Problems with airlifting developed later on, and many, then, walked, yes, walked from Ethiopia to Israel, some caught in Sudan, en route, held and held captive, where they were tortured. There are now one hundred thousand of them living in Israel. You probably know that there are Jews throughout Africa….As for love of money, I hear this from some of the Christians/Catholics, but I’ve never seen it among Jews. I have seen it among Punjabi (sorry), never among Pashtun. I can tell you I think it probably exists among all people. In our case, I wish we at least could develop an interest in it, but that is another story.My friends also attended Catholic Schools. A Pashtun I know taught at the Chiefs School.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,Clarification of preceding post: By “we,” I mean my family and yours truly, in particular.”In our case, I wish we at least could develop an interest in it, but that is another story.”

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Yasser,Before you come to any conclusions about Pakistani Brits, visit England. The BBC nonsense you watch is hardly representative of England.South Asians are ghettoized and discriminated against in every sphere of life. The racism against Pakistanis, Caribbeans, Indians, Bangladeshi is mind-boggling.Racism, bigotry are systemic problems. The effects of bigotry cannot be cured by individual will. They are systemic. While Indians who settled awhile back have done better, the reasons have more to do with the Brits than with the Indians. A long story.This does not mean that Indians are treated well. More and more, we see in the US, Indian immigrants who have come here after having spent several miserable years in England.The English are significantly behind the US with respect to racism, sexism, xenophobia. They are virulently antisemitic, still refer to the Irish Catholics as “dumb Irish,” loathe them.Take a trip there, my friend. Take a trip, and despair.

  • yasseryousufi

    Hi Farnaz,That ‘Pakustan’ was a typo~! Im sure you know that. But seriously if you feel like you have a thesis or a scholarly work to present you can always get in touch with me. my hotmail id is the same as this one. The people who attend these courses are some of the best minds in Pakistan. Ours is a very liberal organization and most speakers who come here criticize the government as much as they like coz everything is off the record~! With regards to Dalits, If Indians are trying to end the caste system, good for them. They never should have started it in the first place. Its not even an issue in Pakistan. No caste systems here. In India, the untouchables number more than 220 million~! Some estimates put them at even 300 million~!Thats around twice the population of Pakistan and almost equal to USA, the third most populous country in the world! So really its India where its a Human rights issue and they are the ones who need to be pressurised. The Jewish link of Pathans, is more of an academic subject to me~! No emotinal attachments as you may have noticed Im at peace with my religion~! And its just a theory. If you google ‘Jews and Pathans’, there are more than 5000 links that deal with this subject. Ill admit I havent read any of them so far, but its on my to do list. Ill let you know if I unearth some hidden secret~! But one theory thats put forward is that Pathans say they have Jewish roots because otherwise they would have to be Hindus or Buddhists before Islam came and that for them is a somewhat inferior position. With Jewish roots they can atleast claim we believed in one God even before Islam came. I wonder if you’ve also heard of the Kalasha people? They are the only remaining pagan tribe of Pakistan and trace back their roots all the way to the Macedonians~!

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Yasser: 1) Background of today’s situation: British Muslims overwhelmingly derive from the former West and East Pakistan, today Pakistan and Bangladesh. The first wave of migration occurred in the 1970s, the second, much larger, wave from 1997 onwards when the British government, for reasons known only to itself, basically threw open the door to economic migrants. Muslim migrants are permanent additions to the overall population. Very few return to their country of origin. Muslims today comprise about 3% of the UK population, their number set to rise to 5% due to a higher birthrate.2) Today’s situation: the ONS (Office of National Statistics) Social Trends, 2009 provides some evidence. 44% of men born in Pakistan and 47% of those born in Bangladesh are currently in full time employment, the lowest employment of all groups born overseas. The remainder are on benefits. The prospects of their children are improving but from a shockingly low level. In 1999 less than 30% of Pakistani and Bangladeshi children attained 5 GSCEs (the minimum qualification for employment), the lowest of any ethnic group. This had improved markedly by 2006 to 51% and 55% respectively but it is still at the bottom of ethnic group achievement.Islam in the United KingdomIn contrast to the origin of British Muslims, Islam in Britain seems dominated by imans from Egypt and the Gulf. One of the oddest sights a new migrant from, say, Bangladesh will encounter in London are Bangladeshi women veiled in black, in the style of Gulf Arabs. The most radical preachers have hailed from Jordan and Lebanon (I think). A few of them have been barred from their native countries, as you said. The largest and most expensive mosque in Britain is in Regents Park, London and was built by the Saudis. The school attached to the mosque has had some of its books confiscated for calling infidels “pigs” and worse. These were aimed at 7 and 8 year old children.

  • Mary_Cunningham

    Pt IISummary of social trendsWhy are British Pakistanis attracted to radical Islam?If I had to give one answer it is because of their relatively poor situation vis a vis other ethnic groups and, of course, the host English. Simply put: they are at the bottom of the pile. Additionally adequate Muslim role models were/are lacking—their fathers out of work or in very poorly paid jobs, their preachers from a background dissimilar to theirs, too few Muslim male teachers. The man most admired by British Muslims is (unbelievably!) Cat Stevens, now known as Yusef Islam, not Pakistani, Bangladeshi, not even a Gulf Arab, but a Greek convert to Islam.

  • yasseryousufi

    Mary,Thanks~! I think you’ve put it all together very eloquently and there isn’t much to disagree with what you say. The Pakistani’s who went to UK were mostly mildly educated working class people from the rural areas of Punjab. They were of use to UK during the Industrial boom after the war right through to the 60’s. For them it was an alien culture and one can imagine the culture shock they would have had when they reached England. So even though they didnt wanna go back to their dirt poor villages, at the same time they were fearfull of their new homeland, their biggest nightmare What if my daughter runs away with a white boy?? That would be the ultimate shame. So with that in mind they reared their children to be good muslims. But sadly with their lack of education and undersatnding of the society, they were ill equipped to raise their children who had so many distraction~! so naturally most of them became rebels as soon as they reached teenages. For their daughters they still go to Pakistan, get her married to one of her cousins in Pakistan, bring him to UK and who in turn brings his own brothers and family to UK. Most of these kids are misfits in the highly competitive corporate culture of work in UK. So yea, its one big mess! and your government has got its hands full. I think atleast for Imams you can make some precondition, requiring them to atleast complete a basic level of education, having lived in UK for a considerable time and able to converse in English. There’s nothing discriminatory about that. Most muslim country’s apply condition to a person before he becomes an Imam.But really the bigger issue is immigration. There is increasing resentment of it all over Europe with an undercurrent of unabashed racism. Immigration is really a complex issue. The Europeans and Americans need to understand that they cannot have these islands of prosperity around oceans of despair, poverty and hunger etc. The elephant in the room is the fact that less than 20% of population of the world is utlizing more then 80% of its resources. The rich Nations have to give back atleast some of their illgotten wealths~! The BP’s the Shell’s the Halliburtons are raping the resources of poor countries of Africa, South America and Asia. The people from these places do not have much choice. Everyone wants to get out of this grinding poverty, to have a better future for their children. They’ll come legally, illegally, by boat, on foot putting their lifes in danger. Well there’s just so much thats wrong with this world, one is lost for ideas. I dont think all our problems can be solved anyway. So all we can do is make the best out of whatever we got. I dont know if all this rant is even worth writing~! There’s nothing new in what I say. But yea…..one cant stop being angry…..or sad~!

  • yasseryousufi

    Hello Farnaz~!Dalit maybe a generic term, but believe me I’ve never heard a Christian sweeper being called a dalit here. There are many issues with Christians of Pakistan. Those that I meet say there#1 issues vis a vis Pakistan are they blasphemy laws. There are a lot people working to repeal it (though I am not in favor of it, but that hardly counts~!), the former President Musharraf was all set to repeal them before he got weak in the last year of his Presidency. The sweeper issue is pretty low on the list of priorities christian rights workers here, if it were believe me I would hace heard it. But im pleased that UNICEF people are taking it up.I work for National Institute of Management (Formerly NIPA)

  • yasseryousufi

    ….Dhaka NIPA was established in the pre-partition period rather than post partition~!

  • yasseryousufi

    Well Pashtuns and Jewish people have this funny History. Most Pathans elders think that they are the lost tribe. There’s book by Olaf Caroe called ‘Pathans’ which briefly deals with the subject. Plus there are a lot of videos on youtube trying to prove that link. I have no idea if its true. But my friends say that the biggest proof is our love for money~! Well whatever~!

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,There is no denying the discrimination muslims face in UK. I think thats been a conclusion we had already reached. I was trying to give my perspective (which could be faulty~!) sitting and watching the situation from here with regards to the issues that bedevils muslims of Pakistani origin there. Surely it has to be a bit of both. But i’ll admit Im hardly as lucky as you in terms of having witnessed different cultures first hand, so yea……cant compete with you at everything~!But you’re right that muslims in america are much better than those in UK. For the simple reasons that immigration criteria is such that only the best minds are able to get through them. And US for the most part has benefited with its immigration policy vis a vis India/Pakistan. Most of the people who get there are high achievers over here so they make the transition rather easily. Plus americans being a nation of immigrants are much more easy going than the Brits who used to rule India half a century ago. Btw, you didnt respond to my post~! Didn’t you find that Jewish Pathan link I posted queer?

  • groucho42

    “There is no denying the discrimination muslims face in UK.”Of course there is, yasseryousufi. Muslims in the UK are demanding Sharia law and many non-Muslims are supporting them. Muslim leaders in the UK regularly and openly support jihad and aren’t arrested. Read Eurabia by Bat Yeor. It describes how Arab Muslims used oil in the 1970s to openly push for what’s happening now. And don’t start by saying that since you disagree with the conclusion, the facts presented in the book must be wrong.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    groucho42, you said,sheesh, even when they move to another culture they want to BRING entanglement of mosque and state with them. islam cannot be islam with separation of mosque and state. entanglement is “built in” to islam.then, you said,really?!

  • tbarksdl

    It’s time once more for the five questions, the ones that take us to the core of Islam in America. What makes them more relevant than ever is the fact that no Muslim has ever dared to answer them. Look at what is considered to be orthodox Islam by its most authoritative voices. Now, I would like to pose five questions to those authorities:1. Does Islam allow for the separation of church and state?(Instead of posing the questions to the authoritative voices of Islam, imagine the question was, “What would Islamic textbooks used in the teaching of Muslim students in America say in answer to the following questions?”)

  • yasseryousufi

    Groucho42,Are you saying there is absolutely no discrimination against muslims (of Pakistani origin) in UK? Well that could just be your opinion and most reasonable people will disagree with that.There are many misconceptions regarding Sharia Law~! It isnt just about chopping off heads or hands. It deals with every aspect of a muslims life from Commerce and Trade to Martital Matters. A lot of Sharia laws are inline with western laws, some of which may have been inspired by Sharia Law at some point in time. The first high profile figure to ask for Sharia Law in UK wasn’t a muslim guy but a High Profile Anglican Priest. They are only demanding Sharia laws, that are inline with western values. Besides it isn’t as if they are violently asking for it to be imposed. In a democracy you are given the right top peacefully persue what you believe is your right. If the government doesn’t give them Sharia Laws, I believe they’ll move on. There’s no harm in asking though. Sharia can only be imposed on muslims anyway. The term Eurabia is racist anyway~! I know its was first coined by a Zionist woman. There are many reasons for the Oil embargo of the ’70’s. Which ones are you talking about?