Debating Christopher Hitchens on faith

Last week, former British prime minister Tony Blair, who converted to Catholicism after leaving office, debated the merits of religion … Continued

Last week, former British prime minister Tony Blair, who converted to Catholicism after leaving office, debated the merits of religion with avowed atheist Christopher Hitchens. Following are Blair’s thoughts about the event. For Hitchens’ click here.

By Tony Blair

First off, it was great to do the debate. People of religious faith should be prepared to have it out with those of an atheist persuasion, and to stand up for what they believe in.

Christopher Hitchens is someone of huge integrity and whatever the disagreement between us over religion, he is someone who puts the case against religion with vigor.
And of course, his argument requires an answer. No rational person can look at the world today – and especially the history of the last decade – and deny religion can be a source of division and conflict.

Within virtually all the great faiths, there are those who are extreme either in pursuing their own faith or in demonizing those of another faith and sometimes doing both simultaneously. I also believe strongly that it is not good enough for those of us who are religious to say to the extremists: we don’t accept you are really religious, so we don’t accept responsibility for you. Instead we have to confront this extremism religiously as well as politically and reclaim true religion from the fanatic.

Otherwise what happens is what we see happening now. In parts of the West, there is an aggressive secularism that essentially joins forces with the fanatics to say: that defines religion. Meanwhile, elsewhere and especially in Islam, religiosity grows with no counter-narrative about faith to correct the attempted takeover by extremists.

What was fascinating about the debate was not so much the obvious point of discord; but how some assumptions were in fact held in common.

The most important is in the discarding of the notion that religion is going to die out, wither away, be left behind as a relic of superstition in a scientific world. Back in the day when I was a student, this thesis was rampant. With prosperity, it was confidently predicted, religion would decline. It hasn’t and not simply in Islam. In China today, there are more Muslims than in Europe, more practicing Protestants than in England, more practicing Catholics than in Italy. Plus 100 million who consider themselves Buddhists. The fastest growing Christian evangelical movement is in Latin America. Religion is not on its way out.

So, even if you’re an atheist who considers religious people deluded, the issue is not: who wins, the “God-fearing” or the “godless”: both rather how does religion be a force at ease with globalization and the modern world, not contradicting it. The very reason for my foundation – the Tony Blair Faith Foundation – is to bring about greater respect and understanding between faiths, because in the world we live in, people of different faiths and races and cultures are being pushed ever closer together. In that world religion can be a negative – pulling people apart on the basis of religion as a badge of identity in opposition to others of a different faith; or a positive, lending values to and civilizing the process of globalization.

And of one thing I am sure: globalization is not a conspiracy of governments; it is a force driven by technology and by people. Whatever strains imposed on it by the financial crisis, it is not going to stop. It will shape the 21st century.

So in a sense the challenge for both people of all faiths and people of none is to create the circumstances in which those faiths can coexist peacefully in mutual tolerance and respect.

In achieving this, the last thing secularism needs, is an attack on religion so extreme that it is almost a type of atheist fundamentalism. This, to be fair, Christopher avoided, at least in Toronto on Friday night! Sure, we can point to stupid, arrogant and even wicked things done by people who say they’re doing them motivated by their faith. That is undoubtedly true. But it is also undoubtedly true that people do acts of extraordinary common good inspired by religion. Almost half of healthcare in Africa is delivered by faith based organizations, saving millions of lives.

A quarter of worldwide HIV/AIDS care is provided by Catholic organizations, and witness the fantastic work of Muslim relief organisations. Day in day out across America and beyond, there are religious groups doing the most amazing work caring for the sick, the disabled, the disadvantaged and the destitute; often caring for those in respect of whom, no-one else cares. 

So the proposition that religion is unadulterated poison is unsustainable. It can be destructive. It can also create a deep well of compassion and frequently does. These people are inspired to do good by the true essence of faith: which is, along with doctrine and ritual particular to each faith, a basic belief common to all faiths, in serving and loving God through serving and loving your fellow human beings. As witnessed by: the life and teaching of Jesus, one of love, selflessness and sacrifice; the true meaning of the Torah, which has at its heart, care for others; the teaching of the Prophet Mohammed – in saving one life, it is as if you save the whole of humanity; in Hindu searching after selflessness; the Buddhist states of upekkha, karuna, mudita; and metta which all subjugate selfish desires to love for others; Sikh insistence specifically on respect for others of another faith. This is the true face of faith.

The values derived from this essence offer to many people a benign, positive and progressive framework by which to live our daily lives: stimulating the impulse to do good; disciplining the propensity to be selfish and bad.
Faith defined in this way is not simply a solace in times of need, though it can be; nor a relic of unthinking tradition; and still less a piece of superstition, or an explanation of biology. It answers instead a profound spiritual yearning, something we feel and sense instinctively. This is a spiritual presence bigger, more important, more meaningful than just us alone; that has its own power separate from our power; and that even as the world’s marvels multiply, makes us kneel in humility not swagger in pride.

If faith is seen in this way, science and religion are not incompatible, destined to fight each other until eventually the cool reason of science extinguishes the fanatical flames of religion. Rather science educates us as to how the world is and how it functions. Faith educates us to the purpose to which such knowledge is put, the values that should guide its use and the limits of what science and technology can do, not to make our lives materially richer but richer in spirit.

Imagine, indeed, a world without religious faith, not just no places of worship; no prayer; no scripture; but no men or women who, because of their faith, dedicating their lives to others, showing forgiveness where otherwise they wouldn’t; believing through their faith that even the weakest and most powerless have rights; and they have a duty to defend.
The truth is that for many people of faith what draws them to God is not history or ritual, important though these are. It is a belief in a divine presence in their lives that gives their lives purpose and meaning.  Christopher in the debate, recognized the place of the transcendent feeling in the human experience; but for him this would be encompassed within humanism. For me, such transcendence comes from God.

One other reflection: the more I read of the great scientists, including Darwin and Einstein, the more I recognize the essential element in neuro-science are opening up whole areas of analysis in emotional behavior and even the spiritual.

Religion has had many bad things done in its name. But then so has politics and the 20th century is littered with such examples. Many millions died as a result of a belief that the will of man should be dominant. So we should all approach this issue with a degree of humility. For people of faith the challenge is obvious: to reconcile faith with reason.

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  • razzl

    I can only say on this topic and commenter that it’s a shame a man as bright as Tony Blair does not have the personal courage to leave behind belief in the supernatural when he clearly has the education to know that there is no reality behind it, and it’s a shame he also did not have the courage to stand up to a man as wicked and ignorant as George Bush, whose character he also surely knew. I claim no greater courage than anyone else, but discharge my intellectual obligation to point out it’s meaning in the context of Blair’s comments…

  • ThomasBaum

    Tony BlairYou wrote, “No rational person can look at the world today – and especially the history of the last decade – and deny religion can be a source of division and conflict.”One can go back further than that, but is it the “religion” or the person or persons?Also, “division and conflict” does not necessarily mean that it has to be physical.You also wrote, “Within virtually all the great faiths, there are those who are extreme either in pursuing their own faith or in demonizing those of another faith and sometimes doing both simultaneously.”There is a difference between “demonizing those of another faith” and taking an honest look at the “faith” itself not the practitioners of that “faith”.You then wrote, ” Instead we have to confront this extremism religiously as well as politically and reclaim true religion from the fanatic.”Have you ever considered that some of the “extremists” might, just might, be following the dictates of that “religion”?You then wrote, “So, even if you’re an atheist who considers religious people deluded, the issue is not: who wins, the “God-fearing” or the “godless”: both rather how does religion be a force at ease with globalization and the modern world, not contradicting it.”Do you look at it as between the “God-fearing” and the “godless”, as you put it, or between good and evil, between God and satan?There was a man named Jesus Who said, “My Kingdom is not of this world”, it is not about something so puny as “a force at ease with globalization and the modern world” but about the Redemption, Salvation and Sanctification not only of all of humanity but of all of creation.God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows. The very “core” of Christianity is that God became One of us for the benefit of all of us and extended the “invitation” to “Come follow Me” to us as individuals.Do you look upon Christianity as a “religion” or a “relationship”?Jesus also said, “I have come to bring FIRE to this world and I wish it was already burning”, if you had an inkling of what Jesus meant by this, you would be wishing along with Jesus’s wish.See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • eezmamata

    Tony, as a religious person yourself, you have no place to stand where you can say anything about what rational people should and should not say, or do, or think.Your very existence is irrational.

  • eezmamata

    Hey Thomas, why does your christian heaven sound so much like a hell nobody but a godhumping fool like you would want to live in?That’s one thing you christers never seem to want to deal with. How is it that you want to spend eternity sucking on some despotic god’s protuberance so he won’t step on you (according to your mythology)?Really, you’re quite disgusting. Don’t wait for me in your stinking hell … I mean your heaven. You and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and all the other rapture monkeys can keep it.

  • t_parker16

    George Bush’s poodle becomes the Pope’s bloodhound. Sadness. Why do men in their dotage turn to religious fables? Why not particle physics or cosmology or ethnobiology …Alas, the answer is too easy: because the latter are too hard and religion, where anything is as valid as anything else, is easy. Blessed are the simple-minded, for they know it all …

  • areyousaying

    And how many little boys were buggered by Priests in the UK on your watch while you and your government looked the other way at the special dispensation your newly found Catholic church gives them to help themselves.

  • wakeup3

    Amen Thomas. Mr. Blair religious tolerance will not bring harmony to our planet as long as Evil is present. The Apostle Paul writes, “… I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” The debate was over after these words!Blessings

  • ThomasBaum

    eezmamataYou wrote, “Hey Thomas, why does your christian heaven sound so much like a hell nobody but a godhumping fool like you would want to live in?”I didn’t say one thing about what “christian heaven” would be like so how can you even make a comment such as this?You then wrote, “That’s one thing you christers never seem to want to deal with. How is it that you want to spend eternity sucking on some despotic god’s protuberance so he won’t step on you (according to your mythology)?”You seem to be upset about something but as I have said, I haven’t mentioned what “christian heaven”, as you put it, would be like.You then wrote, “Really, you’re quite disgusting. Don’t wait for me in your stinking hell … I mean your heaven. You and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and all the other rapture monkeys can keep it.”Seems as if you like to “group” people together rather than actually listening or reading what a person has to say.See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • ThomasBaum

    wakeup3 You wrote, ” one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” The debate was over after these words!””one baptism”, remember when John said to Jesus that it should have been Jesus baptising John rather than John baptising Jesus?Jesus went on to say that His baptism by John was to be, sometimes God does things before “our very eyes” but we do not always see.Have you ever heard the statement: One baptism for the forgiveness of sins?One way I like to put it is: God has all of the bases covered.As I have said before, if God’s Plan is not, ultimately, for all then it is not much of a Plan and more Catholics should be catholic.God looks at the person, not the “label”.Take care, be ready.Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

  • DC_RICK

    “Imagine…a world without religious faith…no men or women who, because of their faith, dedicating their lives to others”This is easy, I live in DC.

  • jujones1

    Why do we have to have either “aggressive secularism…a world without religious faith” OR “deluded” religious people? If a person’s faith in God makes him treat people and this world well, so be it – we’re all better off; if a person’s faith in humanity and science does the same, aren’t we better off then, too? If people use either stance to only their advantage, riding roughshod over the rights and lives of others, they need to be held accountable, not the religion or science they hide behind or use as a whipping tool…

  • ender3

    Like Shrub, Blair should be tried for war crimes. Is participating in an interfaith support group his way of making atonement for attacking a nation that had done his nation, nor ours, any harm? I thought his Jewish Zombie could forgive him for providing supporting lies and British lives in the slaughter of 1/2 million non-combatants, the forced exile of millions more and the destruction of a nation because it dared to challenge British/American imperialism.Blair is a political animal and no more religiously motivated than Chris Hitchens. He knows that the Cults of Abraham are mutually exclusive. Christianity claims eternal hell for all muslims while Islam denies the divinity of Jeebus and Judism only cares about the tribe. Israel doesn’t recognize most converts.

  • EvilOverlord

    “Imagine, … a world without religious faith, … no men or women who, because of their faith, dedicat[e] their lives to others, …”Why assume that in a world without religious faith, no one would dedicate his/her life to others? Obviously, they would not do it because of their faith, but it’s highly likely that many would do it for other reasons – just as many worthy, generous, and altruistic people do now. Religion can be a motivator of good (and evil) works, but it is not the sole cause.

  • the_observer1

    blair’s new role as the the pope’s bottom boy suits him well …… he looks content

  • martymar123

    ThomasBaum wrote: “See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.”Thomas: “The Kingdom of God is within you.” 🙂

  • shhhhh

    But your religion dictates that abortion is murder and killing is a sin. And these views are being forced down the throats of those who do not necessarily espouse to your religion. So back to square 1?I’d prefer John Lennon’s ‘Imagine’ world.

  • Meridian1

    Tony Blair is smart enough to know that he has evaded the real issue.A generalized defense of faith, rather than a specific defense of the basic tenets of Catholicism (or even Christianity) does no more than simply say one religion is as good as another so long as each provides fulfillment for the spiritual needs of its adherents. But if that is so, it is contradicted by the practices of the revealed religions, in particular Roman Catholicism, which contend they are the “true” faith. It also avoids entirely the questions surrounding the efficacy of prayer.By Blair’s explanation, he might as well worship Zeus as Jesus; they are all equally true. Which, as I suspect Hitchens would point out, means they are also all equally false.

  • Frank57

    How can you logically debate anyone who insists, without evidence, that there is a big fairy in the sky looking out for us?Obviously Hitchins knew this going in — that it wasn’t really going to be a debate in any real sense of the word, but merely a speech given by two of opposing views.It’s really sad to see grown-up people just chuck it all in and adopt a belief in fairies as if they’re just too tired of ‘thinking’ for themselves anymore — and not just any fairies, but a type of callous, narcissist, vindictive, selfish, anti-human monster cooked up by a desert tribe over two millennia ago.

  • DWSouthern

    Blair ends his remarks with the lame idea that the challenge of faith is to reconcile faith with reason. The problem is that such reconciliation is impossible, if one really uses logical reason based on verifiable evidence. Various religions are based on supernatural nonsense encased in some holy text supposedly decreed by some never-seen omniscient, omnipresent deity who determines everything that happens in the universe. Since so much in the world is evil and tragic, how can an all-knowing, all-powerful deity allow such misery and injustice and be deserving of worship? Blair may champion reason as well as faith, but his reasoning is no match for that of Hitchens.

  • CHAOTICIAN101

    Well, I don’t like Tony very much and I do feel saddened by his beliefs in a Concretized supreme being; I do agree that spiritual questions will not end and something needs to replace these religions that spring from this human need!There are many Spiritual traditions which are compatible with Science and reason which treat the spiritual as a quest for truth much like science. In fact one such would be the Kashmir Shaivite tradition which often reads like a treatise of String Theory. It is actually the Abrahamic “faiths” of Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim which invoke this notion of a God separate and distinct from his creation which creates much of the discordance in our world. Muslims and Jews have their spiritual traditions of Sufi and Kabbalah; it is the poor Christians who lack a true spiritual tradition which is ironic in that the words and deeds of their Jesus are largely supportive of a Spiritual tradition but got entrapped in the Pauline Catholic Church and its dogma! So perhaps Tony can use his group to awaken a Spiritual tradition within Christianity align with the Sufis and the Kabbalists and join the Spiritualists of Yoga, Buddhism, Quantum Mechanics, and other scientific disciplines for a new enlightened period for Humanity?

  • abrahamhab1

    Eezmata pontificates thus:I bet then you are counting on a Muslim Paradise which is a celestial and everlasting super orgy presided by Allah and His favorite prophet.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    it is the poor Christians who lack a true spiritual tradition which is ironic in that the words and deeds of their Jesus are largely supportive of a Spiritual tradition but got entrapped in the Pauline Catholic Church and its dogma! So perhaps Tony can use his group to awaken a Spiritual tradition within Christianity align with the Sufis and the Kabbalists and join the Spiritualists of Yoga, Buddhism, Quantum Mechanics, and other scientific disciplines for a new enlightened period for Humanity?Posted by: CHAOTICIAN101 | November 30, 2010 5:51 PMit would be nice. i find those “eastern” religions much more interesting and possibly fulfilling. but, i suppose in terms of “spirituality”, i had the misfortune of growing up in the JudeoChrIslamic world of “religion stories”. the narrative emphasis of this-happened-and-so-and-so-did-that-and-it-really-really-happened has perhaps ruined me… seems to me like buddhism/hiduism/taoism/confucianism are not dependent on real characters and magical happenings or being historical or predictive. much more about psychology and philosophy and ethics.

  • ThishowIseeit

    Mr Blair, G W Bush would not have gone to war if you had told him “No war” and thousands innocent lives would have been spared.

  • GoldenEagles

    peterhuff says, “Not every individual is a child of God …”This sounds like a demon-inspired (false) doctrine to me, that serves the agenda of the dark side, in the dividing of the Body of God on earth. Divide and conquer is their tactic. And of course, we see people serving as the pawns of the dark side in this regard in every department of human life. I would like to see what points of scripture you use to come to that conclusion, that “Not every individual is a child of God …”And besides, it would seem to me, as we struggle with how to apply the Master’s admonishment to “Judge Not,” I think that this “non-child” intellectual construction might be on the very top of the list of those places we are commanded not to go.Certainly it is more compassionate to use the Master’s own teaching on demon possession, and that of unclean spirits as well, to understand why people exhibit various shades of rebellion against God’s laws, without using some tortured (and hatred driven) interpretation of scripture to define them completely out of the Family of God.

  • GoldenEagles

    I do apologize for my obsession with correct formatting, however, which causes me to double post these last two entries.

  • GoldenEagles

    Yet, this is the truth. We saw NO statement of recognition or appreciation come out of his lips. Why? Because where there should be love, there is no love. There is something there other than love. What is there? It is a strong hatred for Catholics, out of which no appreciation can sprout. A hatred to which he assigns other virtues, dressing it up in these intellectual objections regarding various aspects of Catholic doctrine. In this regard, in his hatred for Catholics, he has what amounts to a Satan Doll in his toy chest that he takes out and plays with from time to time, that he dresses up in the robes of Jesus Christ, puts a shepherds crook in its hand, and calls it righteous.Certainly there is strong force opposing RcoField’s realization of truth in this regard, and it has two parts. First, the agenda of the demonic force is to have rcofield to continue to identify with the hatred, to have him continue to view this hatred as some form of “wisdom”, as this is the way they control his interpretational methodologies. And so, they resist with all their power the realization of truth in this area. Rcofield is like a protestant warrior reincarnated from the protestant / catholic wars that engulfed Europe over a span of several hundred years. He has a strong momentum of hatred that he believes is the same thing as righteousness. And he carries it forward with him, into this life, along with the relationship to the demonic forces that first instilled that hatred.Second, there is the factor of shame again. If he admits that he has hatred for Catholics, which he has expressed publically, and which is obvious to anyone who reads the above quotes, he would have to admit that he is in rebellion against the most fundamental teachings of the Master Jesus Christ, you know, “Love your enemies.” “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. In his heart, he wonders, what is his scriptural interpretational philosophy worth, when it does not help him to come into alignment with the single most important aspect of the Teaching of the Master he purports to worship? Remember, this Master said, that love FULFILLS the whole law, and thus anti-love BREAKS the whole law. And thus, the whole intellectual edifice of rcofield’s supposed Biblical based sense of superiority is in danger of falling down around him. And maybe it should. For truth is the only garment one can wear into heaven.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    The definition of
    Sophistry, and its synonyms, are the instrumentalities of the dark side, and when a person’s intellect exhibits the use thereof, we see where the demonic influence is pressing against the feeling world, and thus pushing the mind, through the power of contempt, into this domain of non-truth, that is, into this effort to make non-truth appear as truth through a clever construction of words. You see it in your dialog with Atheists and liberals all the time.And so, as you can see, I am not bringing up the issue of I want to demonstrate this truth, that this line of analysis can be used to discern truth from error wherever it resides, whether that be in the Catholic tradition, or the Protestant, or the Orthodox, or the Hindu, or the Buddhist, or the Islamic. But more than that. Here we have a line of analysis that gives us a tool by which that individual, who has been drawn into error, can be persuaded to step back into the Light. And moreover, this line of analysis allows the quality of compassion to enter the equation, as we can understand why and how the person has been led into a detour, again cutting pride off at the knees as well, as we are not tempted to define these individuals en masse as “non-christian” as rcofield has done to the Catholics, but rather, through understanding we can see what has drawn them off the path in a certain area of the teaching, knowing that what the forces of darkness have drawn off the path, God our Father and Mother desire to bring back to the path. As the Shepherd is known for going after the lost sheep.REASON is the shepherd’s crook, when wielded in a masterful manner, it can bring the sheep back into the right pasture. (more)

  • ender3

    Oh GoldenTurkeyVulture, what thread are you replying to? You have just interrupted a faily interesting conversation with multiple post of delusioned blather. You may need to have your medication adjusted.

  • ender3

    rcofield and turkey vulture:Do you even know where you are posting? Are you two personalities of the same schizophrenic troll? You do make a case that religion is for the irrational and unstable mind and leads to delusional and incohesive thinking.

  • spidermean2

    Catholicism and atheism are both false religions. Both have a history of burning Bibles.It’s a debate between two blind men.

  • ender3

    If Catholicism is a false religion(I agree) then what you must call christianity is only 600 yrs old and invented by copying a false religion(which it was and is). Also, if you take out the catholics, christianity becomes a smaller religion than islam, hinduism or catholicism, and a mere flash in the pan and should not be considered one of the worlds major religions. Because you don’t believe in Catholicism does that mean you practice the religion of acotholicism?

  • peterhuff

    Hi GoldenEagles,Concerning you post on December 1, 2010 12:30 AM in which you said,I would like to see what points of scripture you use to come to that conclusion, that “Not every individual is a child of God …”What would you accept as authority? Would you accept the Word of God? You still haven’t answered RCofield’s question concerning Scripture and how you interpret it, and the more we converse the more it is apparent that your interpretation is butchering the text. And besides, it would seem to me, as we struggle with how to apply the Master’s admonishment to “Judge Not,” I think that this “non-child” intellectual construction might be on the very top of the list of those places we are commanded not to go.When you misuse Scripture to your own end I am reminded of the call, long ago, to stand steadfast for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

  • GoldenEagles

    Rcofield, I see that there is one other explanation that might provide the reason that you will not express appreciation for the Catholic Pro-life stand. It might be because you don’t appreciate that pro-life stand because you are

  • GoldenEagles

    At the moment, Rcofield is pouting in his bedroom, and won’t come out and play anymore.My question to you, regarding YOUR scriptural basis for YOUR stated belief that some people are not Children of God, can be answered without waiting for the day when Rcofield regains his composure.Actually, I don’t believe you have any scriptural basis for such a belief. But, prove me wrong if you can. And then you can tell me why the Master Jesus Christ was in error when he become so “obsessed” with casting out demons, and unclean spirits. I would really like to hear your explanation on that score.

  • GoldenEagles

    Protestant hatred for Catholics has its origin in the Black heart of a demonic presence on the astral plane. This is my thesis, and you are helping me to prove it correct. And I appreciate that.

  • GoldenEagles

    Remember the Master’s reference to the house built on sand, compared to the house built on rock. Sand being disobedience to the Master’s word, and rock being obedience to the Master’s word. More specifically, sand would represent the indulging of a state of disobedience in terms of indulging any condition of hatred (which masquerades as wisdom), and rock representing obedience in terms of adhering to the Master’s commandments on love. The house built on sand (the illusion of authority and wisdom in the power of hatred) appears to be solid, as long as there are no storms or floods. As long as the weather is fair, the person can feel that his house is on a solid foundation.But look what happens when the storms come. The storms which the Master refers to, are the storms of hatred (or other negative emotions) that the demonic world can inject into the feeling world of the individual, moving the soul off and away from even the appearance of peace and stability. Under the pressure of the storm, the house of the soul can be literally washed away down a storm channel of contempt and disdain. It has no rock to hold onto.I am sure Rcofield, that you would prefer to define yourself as intellectually solid and civil individual. But let’s face it. It is easy for people to push your buttons, and you get washed into that storm channel more often than you would like to admit.This is why. You have built your house at least partially on sand. This hatred for Catholics that you indulge, which you believe is so wise, this is the (non) foundation of sand. The proof of this assertion is before us. By being pressed on a particular point of truth, the demonic world blows against your house, and your house gets washed down the storm channel of contempt and disdain. You were not able to hold the ground of respect and civility required by the Master Jesus Christ. The idea is to recognize that part of the foundation that appears rock-like, but is in fact sand-like. And when that realization comes to you, you make the choice to replace the sand-like substance of disobedience, with the rock-like substance of obedience. That is, you replace that portion of the identity which rests on hatred (which appears so wise), with a new piece of the Christ Identity that is founded on the rock of obedience, which is love for your brothers and sisters, even if they adhere to (some) doctrinal errors. If you can do the work to shore up your own foundation in this manner, then you will be in a position to help others to shore up theirs.

  • peterhuff

    Hi GoldenEagles,My question to you, regarding YOUR scriptural basis for YOUR stated belief that some people are not Children of God, can be answered without waiting for the day when Rcofield regains his composure.Actually, I don’t believe you have any scriptural basis for such a belief. But, prove me wrong if you can.“He came to that which was His own, but His own did not receive Him. Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME children of God – children born not of natural descent, nor a human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.” (John 1:11-12 Therefore, based on this Scripture some are not His children.“’We are not ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN,’ they protested. ‘The only father we have is God himself.’ Jesus said to them, ‘IF GOD WERE YOUR FATHER, you would love Me, for I came from God and now am here….You belong to YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.” (John 8:41b-42, 44)“How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called CHILDREN OF GOD. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.” (1 John 3:1)“No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the CHILDREN OF GOD ARE and who the CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL ARE: Anyone who does not do what is right is NOT A CHILD OF GOD; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)“But Christ is faithful as a SON over God’s house. And we are His house, IF we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.” (Hebrews 3:6)GoldenEagles, you have to be born of God to be a child of God, to be part of His family, part of His kingdom. Yes, He is our Creator, but not all are His children.

  • GoldenEagles

    You may derive this conclusion from the scripture you have quoted. But if you apply it to anyone, it would break the Golden Rule. Would you want someone to define you out of the Family of God? No, I don’t think you would like that very much. If you define someone out of the Family of God, you rip the rug of hope out from under their feet. Would you want the rug of hope ripped out from under your feet? I don’t think so. Everything that a Christian does MUST comport with the Golden Rule, or that Christian is in a state of rebellion against the Master’s teaching. Therefore, when certain segments of scripture would lead us to interpretations that Break the Golden Rule, it means that there is some element of the puzzle missing. The interpreter does not have the whole story.Note that your statement goes beyond the breaking of the Golden Rule. It also redefines the Character of God himself.There is nothing in what the Master Jesus Christ taught us about the Character of God, that would allow us to believe that God could create a soul, and then turn and say to that soul, “You are not my child.” It is said that God is totally Light, and in him is no darkness at all. In other words God is totally good. A totally good God would lavish love on every child that he has created. If you feel compelled to argue in favor of this statement, “Yes, He is our Creator, but not all are His children.” you will be arguing that there is something rotten in God’s character, which is not the case. Remember, the Genesis story says that everything God created was good. People can be led astray, and go bad. But when God created them, they were good, and they were his children.Therefore, again, when interpretations take the mind outside the framework of fundamental divine definitions, then you know that something is missing. There is a piece of the puzzle missing. Now, when the Children of God enter into rebellion, they are not acting like Children of God, that is for sure. And some souls have long records of entrenched rebellion. Which makes them act like enemies of God. Some of your scriptural references may be pointing in this direction, where a distinction is made between a soul that has a long history of rebellion, and those who have little or no history of rebellion. But that distinction can only make sense if you have a larger framework of understanding which the Bible does not provide. What we see in the Bible represents only a tiny fraction of what the Master Jesus actually taught by either word or deed:

  • PSolus

    GoldenEagles,”…the Atheist Psolus,…”What makes you believe that I’m an atheist?Did you read that in your gideon bible?If so, are you sure that you interpreted that correctly?Or, is your gideon bible able to interpret itself?

  • peterhuff

    PART 5There is nothing in what the Master Jesus Christ taught us about the Character of God, that would allow us to believe that God could create a soul, and then turn and say to that soul, “You are not my child.”… A totally good God would lavish love on every child that he has created.There is a question of will. God gave Adam the opportunity to walk with Him and learn from Him. Adam chose to do his own thing. Be broke rank with God by his own choice. We are by nature children of Adam. His family line leads to death. It is the Second Adam who brings life and restores the relationship to God. “Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone. In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by His Spirit.” (Ephesians 2:19-22)“Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the FAMILY OF BELIEVERS.” (Galatians 6:10)You see GoldenEagles, there is a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. One is of God’s household and member of the family as a son or daughter of God through adoption in Christ Jesus, who gave us the legal right to be called children of God. We now meet the righteous requirements of God in Christ. God is pure and holy and as such will not allow rebellious, sinful men to be part of His kingdom and family. So He sent His Son to reconcile us to Himself through the Son.If you feel compelled to argue in favor of this statement, “Yes, He is our Creator, but not all are His children.” you will be arguing that there is something rotten in God’s character, which is not the case. Remember, the Genesis story says that everything God created was good… But when God created them, they were good, and they were his children. – GENo, you have that wrong for there is not something rotten in God, heaven forbid, but something rotten in men who rebel against the goodness and mercy of God. In Genesis everything was good, very good, until man sinned against God. God disowned Adam and cast him out of the Garden of Eden when he sinned. Our spirit was separated from His by sin.“And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as SONS: ‘My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when He rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines THOSE HE LOVES, and He punishes EVERYONE HE ACCEPTS AS SONS.’ Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you AS SONS. For what son is not disciplined by His father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN AND NOT TRUE SONS.” (Hebrews 12:5-8)

  • peterhuff

    PART 4Everything that a Christian does MUST comport with the Golden Rule, or that Christian is in a state of rebellion against the Master’s teaching.You seem to be living in slavery to the Golden Rule, just like the Jews were trying to earn God’s favour by meeting the law with their constant sacrifices. You can only live by the Golden Rule by submitting to Christ, by denying yourself, taking your cross daily and following Him. His yoke is light, your MUST is burdensome. You are either clothed in Christ’s righteousness or you are clothed in your own. Notice it is through faith in Christ Jesus that anyone is a son of God. We are born anew, baptised into the family of God and become joint heir with Christ because we are identified IN Christ, clothed in His righteousness by God, and the Son is God’s true family, for at one time He was the ONE and ONLY Son. “In love He predestined us to be ADOPTED AS HIS SONS through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and His will.” (Ephesians 1:5)“Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, the redemption of our bodies.” (Romans 8:23)“For God so loved the world that He gave His ONE AND ONLY SON, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)So if Jesus is called His one and only Son (which a number of verses confirm) and we are adopted into His family, then at one time that meant we were not part of that family, for our sinful nature kept us apart. But even so those who have been, are, or will be sons were predestined to be sons before the foundation of the world by His will. Before someone is adopted they are not part of a family. Adoption gives them the legal right to be part of the family. Please read the rest of the chapter, plus chapter 4 of Galatians, talks about sons, the two covenants, and to the promise as to whom are the true sons of God.

  • peterhuff

    PART 3Take a look at some of the Scriptures that say He is able and then ask yourself who is the subject of the action and who is the object of the action or to put it another way, who receives the action and who does the action. Romans 8:39; 2 Corinthians 9:8; Ephesians 3:20; 2 Timothy 1:12; 3:15; Hebrews 7:25; Jude :24; Revelation 5:5. This is true throughout the NT and OT. God saves. We are called to first love God and then to love our neighbor. This is true, but the Golden Rule doesn’t save. Obedience to the rule comes by His grace of being set free from the law of sin and death.“the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.” (Romans 8:7)So where is your ability to do anything apart from and resting in the Lord Jesus Christ, and as such in His work on your behalf, not your own?“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” (Romans 9:16)Trust in Christ, not in yourself. Seek out His ways.“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of the sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved…For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (Ephesians 2:1-4, 8-10) “He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be His God and he will be My SON. But the cowardly, the unbelievers, the vile, the murders, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.” (Rev. 21:7-8)So you see it is not your righteousness or your merit that makes you ‘a son’ of God and one who is born into His family. It is all what Christ has done on behalf of those who will believe and trust in Him. In doing so, by His grace, God gives the new nature, the new spirit that is no longer hostile to God but receives what He has given. “

  • GoldenEagles

    Psolus asks, “What makes you believe that I’m an atheist?”Did I make a mistake in this regard? If I did, I will retract that statment, with an apology.

  • GoldenEagles

    God our Father and Mother will not advocate for obedience to Their laws in one scriptural reference, and then advocate for the rebellion against those laws in another scriptural reference. Therefore, when you find yourself interpreting a piece of scripture that has you believing you must break the Golden Rule to implement your interpretation, then the interpretation will be in error. Error in interpretation derives from lack of information and understanding. Obviously understanding cannot be complete, where information is not complete. Therefore, when it comes to this idea, that not all people are Children of God, which requires you to break the Golden Rule if you apply that interpretation in any life situation, you need to put that construction on the shelf until you have the missing information, the missing understanding, that would bring your interpretation into alignment with the Golden Rule.And finally, Peterhuff, I will give you this point, that you are not saved BY the Golden Rule, but this is also true, that the Master Jesus Christ can’t save you, without your complete and perfect adherence to it.(end)

  • GoldenEagles

    This is another way to look at the St. Paul’s statement, Let that mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus. That Light, That Mind, is what allows for repentance itself. That increment of understanding regarding the law, and the courage required to adhere to it, that is a spiritual power transferred to us by the Master Jesus Christ. And so, every time we recognize a streak of rebellion in our own behavior patterns, and we repent of that pattern of rebellion, we are working with the Master to increase the level of the Light of Christ in us. Indeed, the Master Jesus Christ, being with us at all times, sees when we come into contact with a streak of rebellion, and he reaches out his hand, and says, here, let me help you see this for what it is. And we say, O, I see, that is a behavior pattern that breaches the Law of God, just as you taught, so I better give it up, all of this happening in the little piece of the Christ Mind that is growing in us, and that has been grafted onto us, and as we have this inner understanding, and as we feel the courage to do the right thing, to stop our rebellion in a particular manner, in this way do we work directly with the Master to increase the Light of Christ in us.And so, this process of becoming obedient, which begins with the spirit of repentance, in those areas were we are currently rebellious, this is the process by which our spiritual foundation is made into the rock the Master refers to. A house of understanding and wisdom and obedience, that cannot be moved, as it is made out of the Light of Christ itself.My believe structure incorporates this principle that the strength of our foundation is in Christ, because the Light of Christ, out of which the foundation is built, through obedience, is the only thing that is actually unmovable in this world.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    Peterhuff says, “God is pure and holy and as such will not allow rebellious, sinful men to be part of His kingdom and family.”That’s right. Rebellion against the Laws of God, that is the surest way to keep a person outside the Gates of Heaven. For example, EVERY PERSON who advocates the slaughter of the unborn, will find themselves standing outside the Gates of Heaven at the end of this life, and they will not be allowed to pass through. No exceptions. And there will be that grinding and gnashing of teeth foretold. When the Master Jesus Christ articulated (his version of) the Golden Rule, he was stating a long-known Law of God. As he said, this is the Law and the Prophets. When people rebel against the Golden Rule, that is rebellion against the Law of God. And that rebellion, no different than rebellion of any other color, will keep the individual outside the Gates of Heaven. That was my point. One must be very conscientious, and very careful, in that regard, in one’s adherence to the Golden Rule.I will grant the point, as a long standing part of my own belief structure, that perfection in this regard, only comes through the intercession of the Master Jesus Christ. As St. Paul said, “Let that mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus.” And as the Master Jesus Christ said, “I Am the Light of the World, and no one comes to the Father but by me.” In other words, one comes into the power of perfection inherent in the Father only through the mediatorship of the Master Jesus Christ. I take this to mean, that only by the Light of Christ, having this Light engrafted onto us, with that Light actively living in us, do we have any hope of adhering to the Golden Rule in any kind of a consistent manner.And this goes to the Spiritual Foundation discussion. When we find ourself in a situation where we feel some force within us pushing us to break the Golden Rule, even as we see in the case where people are hating Catholics, or any other branch of the Body of God on earth, even Baptists, which both Catholics and Protestants tend to look down their nose upon, the idea is to recognize this breach of obedience, this streak of rebellion, this violation of the golden rule. And to correct it. This process of self-correction, which begins with the spirit of repentance, will replace a pattern of rebellion (which will keep us out of the Gates of Heaven) with a pattern of obedience, which will help us (as part of an aggregate perfect whole) to enter into the Gates of Heaven.When John the Baptist called the people to Repentance, I believe he was calling the people to actually ingest the very Light of Christ, by which the very act of repentance is made possible. (more)

  • PSolus

    GoldenEagles,”Did I make a mistake in this regard?”Yes; and again, what makes you believe that I’m an atheist?”If I did, I will retract that statment,…”Why retract the statement?I’m more interested in learning what made you believe that I am an atheist.”…with an apology.”Why apologize?

  • RCofield

    Peregrine Solus!Where the heck have you been, man? I’ve missed our exchanges, though my dialog with you on Catholicism has gotten me into some serious hot water with GoldenEagles. I think he is ready to consign me to the 9th circle of hell because I said Catholicism is not Christianity.I’m looking forward to your participation in this discussion. You will certainly not lack material to work with.So you are not an atheist? When you get through carving up the Eagle I’d like to kick that around with you a little.

  • peterhuff

    PART 5There is no point in trying to make yourself perfectly obedient by your own merit, or earn your justification by what you have done, rather than on the merit of Christ. It is impossible in and of yourself if you have already sinned. But if you are IN Christ, He already has (HE HAS made perfect forever) by His sacrifice and guilt offering and through the Spirit you are in the process of being made holy. As a matter of fact, you not only are in the process of being made holy, you already are holy IN Christ for He died in your place and your life is identified with His on the cross, the Holy One, the Perfect One, the Righteous One – the great exchange. If you are IN Christ God has given you a new nature in the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:7-13), for He came to His own – Israel – but His own did not receive Him, yet to all who did He gave the right to become children of God, born of His Spirit. “You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:9-10)

  • peterhuff

    PART 4The law demands perfect obedience. After starting in Christ do you want to finish the task on you own and go back to the law of do’s? Jesus Christ satisfied God’s demand for living a sinless life and you are included in Christ if your trust is in Him alone for your justification, righteousness and perfection. After having been redeemed from the curse of the law by Christ’s perfect sacrifice, do you want to be like the Jews described in the book of Hebrews and go back to the law? The law demands perfect obedience, just like you say. Have you been perfectly obedient? If not then why should God allow you into His perfect and holy presence?“Surely He took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered Him stricken by God, smitten by Him, and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities, and the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed…Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and to cause Him to suffer, and though the LORD makes His life a guilt offering, He will see His offspring and prolong His days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in His hand. After the suffering of His soul, He will see the light of life and be satisfied; by His knowledge My righteous servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities.” (Isaiah 53:4-5, 10-11)GoldenEagles, do you want to bear your own iniquities? If not then put your trust, your reliance, your dependence, your faith, your complete all solely on the Lord Jesus Christ.“But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. Therefore He is able to SAVE COMPLETELY those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.” (Hebrews 7:24-25)We draw near to God through the Lord Jesus Christ!“Because by ONE SACRIFICE He HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are BEING MADE HOLY.” (Hebrews 10:14)

  • peterhuff

    PART 3And finally, Peterhuff, I will give you this point, that you are not saved BY the Golden Rule, but this is also true, that the Master Jesus Christ can’t save you, without your complete and perfect adherence to it. – GEI have news for you GoldenEagles. If you are saved by the Son you are saved forever and God is able to keep you from falling because you are clothed in the complete righteousness of the Son. He is the perfect Lamb without spot or blemish who has died for a specific people whom He will save. God is sovereign and no one can snatch a true believer out of His hands. You don’t act together (synergistically) with God in salvation. It is a free gift that He gives. If you acted together with God then it would also depend on your own ability, not on God’s saving power. If it depended in part on your ability then what need would you have for the Saviour’s perfect sacrifice? Your own might be good enough in that case, but it isn’t because it does not meet the righteous requirements of God. God is the one who justifies you through His Son. You do not justify yourself before God.“Answer me in Thy faithfulness, in Thy righteousness, In Thee, O Lord, have I taken refuge;

  • peterhuff

    PART 2God our Father and Mother will not advocate for obedience to Their laws in one scriptural reference, and then advocate for the rebellion against those laws in another scriptural reference. –GEI take it you did not read chapters one and eight of the e-book link I supplied on the last thread we were on.

  • peterhuff

    Hi GoldenEagles,And getting back to the issue of scriptural interpretation, we see that because the Golden Rule is a statement of the Law of God, you can be sure, that you will not find any scriptural reference which advocates the breaking of the Golden Rule. That was my other point. – GENo, but as Paul said, “What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come…Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart LIFE, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, might be GIVEN TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners BY THE LAW, locked up until faith should be revealed. So THE LAW WAS PUT IN CHARGE TO LEAD US TO CHRIST that we might be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. Now THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW.” (Galatians 3:19, 21-25)“Now a slave has no permanent place in the FAMILY, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:35-36)Jesus came to set the prisoners free. Free from the law that leads to death, the old covenant of works righteousness, because none could keep it; free to do the will of God.

  • GoldenEagles

    Neither do I stand in judgement over my brothers and sisters, who number 2.1 billion within the Christian community, who do not understand how to fulfill the promise of the Master set forth in John 14:12. At this point in my life, I have not fulfilled the promise myself. But I BELIEVE I should be able to fulfill that promise. I believe in the integrity of the Masters teaching in that regard. BELIEF in the integrity of the word of the Master Jesus Christ is the first step. And then, I am looking for the reasons why no one has yet figured out how to fulfill that promise. What is missing in the belief structure referred to by the Master, which he gives as the criteria for the fulfillment of the promise? At minimum, we are dealing with a combination of missing information, and misinterpretation of existing information.(end)

  • GoldenEagles

    If each feather on the wing is composed of an expression of love, in accordance with the commandment of the Master, you can see how people are, in refusing the feather, they are REFUSING to be transformed, refusing to put on the wings, which the Master has for the student, when the student insists on hating, as we see, again, in the case of rcofield v1.0, in his hatred for Catholics.The transformation, from a no-wing situation, to a two-wing situation, can only come about through the Power of the Master Jesus Christ. But the student must cooperate in this process of transformation. This is where the principle of obedience comes into play. The person who is refusing to be obedient, is simply refusing to be transformed. And those who refuse to be transformed, they are the ones who will be blocked from entering the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of this life.ANY individual who supports abortion, which is the First Degree Murder of God, is an individual, who by definition, has not even begun the process of building these wings. In the tens of millions will they be milling about outside the Gates of Heaven with apparently no where to go.But that is not a final judgment on their souls. After the change called “death” for those souls who have refused to work with the Master Jesus Christ to be transformed, they will be given another opportunity. They will be assigned to a transitional domain to await their next embodiment opportunity on earth, where they will again take up the work of building their wings, in cooperation with the Master Jesus Christ.The goal of the Master Jesus Christ is to bring about this transformation for every child on the planet. This ESSENCE of the Teaching the demonic world opposes. They oppose the achievement of this goal of personal transformation. And they oppose the achievement of this goal in the most direct manner by leaning upon the vulnerable astral bodies of individuals like peterhuff v1.0 and rcofield v1.0 getting them all excited and defensive whenever they come face to face with their responsibility and accountability to work with the Master to build their own wings. They probably won’t even read this far. They will be simply launched into another attack, quoting all kinds of scriptural passages that they believe prove me wrong. But look. In so doing, they ignore the wide variety of passages that make it clear that the Master REQUIRES THEM TO (more)

  • GoldenEagles

    For these divine wings to be put on, one feather at a time, the person must follow the “TO DO” commandments of the Master Jesus Christ. The definition of salvation is here. The definition of salvation is in the earning of these wings, one feather at a time. The Power of Salvation is in Jesus Christ for sure, because he, as the mediator, is the only one given the power, by God, to take a tarball of hated, and give the soul a feather of love in return.Perhaps it is true, that Divine Civilizations which comprises the endless expanse of the Heavenly Kingdom, represents a domain of eagles. And there are those, like peterhuff and rcofield, who are being We can hear them wail. They will say, we believed in your salvation O Jesus! And Jesus will say, you did not work with me, while you had the chance, to put on your wings, one feather at a time. You cannot enter into a Kingdom where wings are the requirement, if you have no wings. Be persistent and determined and conscientious in this, and you will have your wings. Look to your final exam as recorded in John 14:12. When you can pass that flight test, you will then know you have succeeded in dawning a full set of divine wings.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    To explain why the proper interpretation of the Sand, Rock, Houses, and Storms, parable bounces off the eyeballs of peterhuff and rcofield, as if they have a built-in solar radiation filter, we must first understand the essence of the Teachings of the Master Jesus Christ. Yes, the ESSENCE of the teaching. And then, understanding the essence, we would look to what forces are acting to motivate the individual to defy this essence. As to the essence of the teaching of the Master Jesus Christ, it is In other words, changing a person who has no wings, to a person who has two wings. And very colorful and beautiful at that.In other words, changing a person who has no belief in his capacity to fulfill the promise the Master set forth in John 14:12 (rcofield v1.0 and peterhuff v1.0), to a person who not only believes he can fulfill it, but who can actually fulfill it (rcofield v2.0 and peterhuff v2.0). That is a fairly profound change, I think you would agree. The whole Teachings of the Master Jesus Christ goes in this direction, indicating to the student, what the student must DO, in way of concrete steps of cooperation, in this transformation process. Now, Peterhuff, and Rcofield, I know (from experience) that a great wind will all of a sudden blow up out of the south, and fill your sails, and you will spend the whole day on the high seas, going from one desert island to another, gathering up all the scripture, like pretty seashells on the beach, which you think refutes the idea of personal transformation. But, in so doing you will ignore the multitude of statements made by the Master which goes in exactly the direction of personal transformation. Yes there are a multitude of such statements.Yes, the Master has, in his storehouse, a pair of wings for each one of us. But these wings cannot be put on all of sudden, all at once. This is because these wings are a metaphor for a transformed psychology. We are talking about a fallen psychology that must be transformed from that which is aligned totally to darkness and rebellion, to one that is aligned totally with light, understanding, and obedience. Again, as St. Paul said, Let that Mind be in You, which was in Christ Jesus. This Mind of Christ, these divine wings in other words, are wings of love, Love for God, Love for the Master, Love for the Truth, Love for the Law, and Love for our brothers and sisters, wherein the stains of hatred have been completely removed.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    In this regard, we have the Master’s own testimony, that he is not giving the full story to the people:
    In way of illustration, I have given you (rcofield) the proper interpretation of The Master’s Parable on Sand, Rock, Houses, and Storms, contained in Matthew 7:24-27, and you will have none of it. And we must ask, why do peterhuff and rcofield appear to be rebelling against the proper interpretation of the Sand, Rock, Houses, and Storms parable? Indeed, in their rush to trample all over the proper interpretation, I suppose everyone, but they, can see that they must ignore, and they do ignore, every piece of scripture where the Master commands “TO DO.” As if these commands mean nothing. As if the clear consequences associated with NOT DOING, which the Master has laid out clearly, do not apply to them.(more)

  • litto31

    As Tony Blair pointed out religion has did many good things to humanity.Religion has contributed for the development of even countries.Take the case of US,UK and Germany, they are the big political and economical powers in this world.If we look 500 years back that was not the case.The mainstream faith of this countries-Protestant Christianity has played a big role in taking them in to top of the world.If we take the other countries with protestant background – Canada,Netherlands,Switzerland,Denmark,Sweeden,Norway etc all of them are economically better contries compared to other countries and Protestant faith had bought them to that level.

  • peterhuff

    PART 4And we must ask, why do peterhuff and rcofield appear to be rebelling against the proper interpretation of the Sand, Rock, Houses, and Storms parable? Indeed, in their rush to trample all over the proper interpretation, I suppose everyone, but they, can see that they must ignore, and they do ignore, every piece of scripture where the Master commands “TO DO.” As if these commands mean nothing. As if the clear consequences associated with NOT DOING, which the Master has laid out clearly, do not apply to them. – GE“May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to ALL WHO FOLLOW THIS RULE, even to the Israel of God.” (Galatains 14:16)What do these verses mean to you GoldenEagles? I have the same complaint that RCofield does about your long winded replies. They mostly seem to talk around our points and questions. Very seldom do you address our questions head on, except on your two favorite verses in Matthew and John, which you cannot seem to justify. You have not demonstrated that Scripture is saying what you interpret it to say.

  • peterhuff

    PART 3Second, there are many instances in scripture where the Master Jesus Christ is depicted as teaching in the synagogue, the temple, a house, a field, a ship, the side of mountain, and so forth. But very little of what he actually said, is recorded in the gospels. –GEWhat was recorded is what God wanted recorded since ALL Scripture is by inspiration of the Spirit of God.Third, in many cases, the Master Jesus Christ spoke in parables. Obviously, the parables contained important spiritual truths. But the truths were not made clear to the public. Therefore, in these cases, the Gospels contain only a signpost, in the form of a parable, that points to further information, which is not actually given in a clear and understandable manner. – GEIn so many of the parables Jesus gave the correct interpretation of the parable to the disciples. You have got to be kidding, right? What Bible are you reading?

  • peterhuff

    PART 2First, the Disciple John, who was very close to the Master Jesus Christ, who spoke from first hand knowledge, said that if everything was written down as to what the Master Jesus Christ did, the whole world could not contain the number of books that should be written. We see therefore, that what is written in the Bible, is only one book. According to the testimony of John, to accurately describe the whole picture as to what the Master Jesus did, you would need several hundred trillion more books. – GE

  • peterhuff

    Hi GoldenEagles, RCofield,RCofield, I hope you don’t mind me putting in my two cents worth on GoldenEagles radical view of Scripture, since he seems to be addressing you on this particular thought.My answer to your question is NO. I do NOT believe that “the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, is the ultimate and final authority for Christians in all matters of faith and practice.” Reason and common sense forbids the very formation of such a conclusion within the mind of man. I have FIVE primary reasons which forbid any degree of agreement with these ideas of “ultimate” and “final” anything. – GESo let me get this straight. You put human reasoning, and especially that of your very own above the Word of God. What do you think happened in the Garden of Eden? Remember pride and self-sufficiency came with the Fall.So let me get this straight. Scripture is not sufficient for us understanding what God has laid out by His Word?“But as for you [Timothy], continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you have learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation though faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:14-17)So let me get this straight. You are so concerned about John 14:12 being interpreted correctly but ignore other parts of Scripture, such as all Scripture being useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, training so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work, which would include all that is relevant in every book of the Bible. What part of thoroughly equipped do you not understand? You want to go looking elsewhere. You don’t think God is capable of giving you everything you need for salvation and sanctification in the Scripture?As for placing your reasoning above that of God’s, there are so many Scriptures that will rebuke that thought, but it seems to me that you are not willing to listen to the still small voice of God from the Scriptures or even the loud thunderous voice of God from the Scriptures. A quick reading of Proverbs 1:20-3:7 or Psalm 119 would be a good start for you.

  • peterhuff

    Good posts RCofield, in which I am in full agreement on concerning GoldenEagles. He seems to be doing the very thing he is accusing us of. He is glossing over our posts. Did he even read them or think about them?When I first encountered his posts I thought, okay, he is on the same page I am in opposing abortion and same-sex marriage/homosexuality as being wrong, but then when he opened up in his thinking he seemed to be more and more divergent from Scripture. Anyone who places higher authority in himself or human reason is definitely not bowing the knee to God in Christ.When you or I asked some simple questions he was off on his astral plane obsession with his long diatribes (as you say) about demons.When Jesus was speaking about His Father saving Him from ‘this hour’ and then saying ‘No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour,’ and then He said,”NOW is the time for judgment on this world; NOW the prince of this world will be driven out,” (John 12:27, 31) did He not gain the victory on the cross for those who would put their trust in Him?Did He not say in John 16:10-11 that He was going to the Father and in regards to judgment that the prince of this world NOW STANDS CONDEMNED”?Did the apostle John not say that “the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world”? If God is for us then who can be against us?

  • GoldenEagles

    Rcofield says, “See? When you posit your own “common sense” and “reason” as your authority you will always and inevitably find yourself contradicting the inspired Word of God.”Obedience to the Commandants of the Master Jesus Christ, are not “works” as St. Paul is using the term. If obedience to these commandments of Jesus Christ were in the category of these “works”, then this argument would destroy any responsibility of the disciple to obey the words of Christ. Certainly Rcofield, that is not your intent here, right?St. Paul is using the term “works” in the sense of doing good things in the world, like giving alms to the poor. Working in a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving day, contributing to charities, building hospitals, and libraries, and buying wheelchairs for people without any legs, and so forth. Philanthropy in general. These are the works that St. Paul is referring to. These works will not get you “saved.” The commandments of Jesus Christ, are not in this category of “works.” They are requirements set forth, by the Master, which the disciple must fulfill, if that disciple will receive the GIFT of salvation. I am focusing on obedience to the commandments of the Master Jesus Christ. This statement in scripture provides the appropriate contrast:
    Now, Rcofield, let me hear you make an argument, that tells us why one can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, if the person refuses to DO the Will of God. Let me see you make this piece of scripture into a dead letter.In deference to your request for shorter posts, I will forego the drafting and posting of the other 9,999 parts of my statement, and just wait for you to respond to this challenge. Yes, please explain how your interpretational methodology requires us to see empty space, when we focus our eyes on Matthew 7:21.

  • GoldenEagles

    This describes the two extreme ends of a multi-level spectrum. There are multiple levels in between these two extremes, which correspond to the soul’s level of progress in fulfilling the Teachings of the Master Jesus Christ. Some souls remain in a state of total rebellion against God. They are always assigned to the lowest level. Some souls have achieved a very high level of obedience and love for the Will of God. These souls are always assigned to the highest level. But there are many levels in between these two extremes. The “judgment” at the end of a given life will place the soul into the transitional domain where it can best process, and learn from, the experiences of the most recent lifetime.The circumstances of the NEXT incarnation are arranged by God our Father and Mother to accentuate the lessons which a particular soul needs to master when it comes to understanding, integrating, and living, the Teachings of the Master Jesus Christ. (In this regard, each of us can look around ourselves in the During the NEXT incarnational opportunity, the soul will be escorted, by the Holy Angels, from its respective transitional domain, and anchored in the new physical body. Here again, this “man” will only be born once, and will only die once. And again, at the end of that life, the soul will face another “judgment.” Again, that judgment process will determine which transitional domain to which the soul is to be assigned. And so forth.This reincarnation process continues, over vast stretches of time, until the soul has been weaned of all rebellious tendencies, and has learned to deeply love the Law of God, the Will of God, with its whole heart, mind and soul. A that point, the soul can return to its Original Divine Estate, which is the state of eternal life in state of complete God-Harmony.This statement by the Master Jesus Christ describes the judgment process that the soul faces after each embodiment:
    (end)

  • GoldenEagles

    The larger context of this statement is VERY esoteric, and one would be very hard pressed to conclude with any amount of certainty that St. Paul was making any reference at all to the subject of reincarnation therein. However, sometimes universal principles with wide applicability are found nested within otherwise unrelated discourses. Let’s assume that is the case here.Working on the assumption, then, that this might be one of those widely applicable principles, we can then ask, what does this scripture say, regarding reincarnation? ANSWER: It actually fits into the reincarnation principle quite harmoniously.With each new incarnation, the soul, which carries the ongoing spiritual identity of the Child of God, is transferred by the Holy Angels, into a new physical body, and for that lifetime, the soul will take on the physical identity of that man, for that period of time. Each physical vehicle that the soul inhabits during a particular incarnation is completely unique, and is a totally separate and different “man” from what the soul has ever been before. Of this man it can be said, that it only dies once. After death, the soul moves on, and faces a judgment, regarding its behavior patterns during that particular life. According to that judgment, the soul will be assigned to a particular transitional domain to await the next incarnation opportunity. If the behavior patterns of the soul are judged to be really atrocious, the soul can be transferred into the domain of “hell”, where it lives among the demonic creatures who had served as its “teachers” during the last lifetime. Serial killers for example. Suicide bombers for example. People who are part of organized crime for example. Homosexuals and abortion advocates would be transferred to this domain as well. Existence in this domain is very horrible, and it teaches the soul that rebellion against God, is the utmost folly. God wants the soul to enter into its next incarnation with this lesson under its belt, so it can walk a better path the next time around.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    For example, how many Abraham Lincoln’s have there been in the history of the world? Only one. That “man” was only born once, and that “man” only died once. But the soul who played the role of Abraham Lincoln, moved on, and might be playing another role today, depending on the requirements of the Divine Plan. Or that soul might be in one of those transitional domains that I mentioned, processing lessons, and preparing for the next embodiment.

  • GoldenEagles

    Is God our Father and Mother going to condemn these 5 billion people to eternal damnation? How could that be possible if what the Master Jesus Christ tells us is true, that God has a forgiving nature? Rcofield would have us believe that in relationship to these 5 Billion souls, all of a sudden that forgiving nature is going to completely disappear!Is that possible? No. God’s Character is immutable, and changeless in this regard. Forgiveness must be expressed, just as the sun gives off light. The principle of reincarnation becomes the natural expression of God’s forgiving nature.The No, this brittle and fanatical opposition to the truth, in the expression of God’s Loving and Forgiving character in the principle of reincarnation itself, is a demonic agenda that is intended to alienate the people of the world from the Christian religion itself.When any Christian adherent feels a strong opposition to the principle of reincarnation, they are feeling the strong pressure of a demonic presence leaning against their feeling world, a pressure of darkness that puts them in the position of denying the true nature of love and forgiveness that is in the Heart of the One True God.A fully loaded oil tanker on the open ocean cannot be turned on a dime. It takes time. And God understands this. He will give his Children, whom he loves, in all cultures and nations, the time to make that turn into the Light.When you understand the nature of God our Father and Mother, as Total Love, and Total Forgiveness, but at the same time, stern defenders of the Principles of Truth, Justice, and Heavenly perfection, then the principle of reincarnation must extend from Their Heart, as the most harmonious expression of that true nature. It is truly their desire that not one should be lost.(end)

  • GoldenEagles

    Actually I do. Here is a statement by the Master Jesus Christ, recorded in the Book of Matthew, that testifies to the principle of reincarnation as truth.
    Here we see that the Master Jesus Christ is telling us that John the Baptist, is the same soul, who played the role of the Prophet Elijah. Thus, we see that reincarnation is a fact taught by the Master Jesus Christ himself.HOWEVER, Verse 15, is just as important. The Master is telling us here, that there will be some people who will not have the ears to hear this. In other words, they will hear the truth, but they will not recognize it as truth. And why this is so, I will address below.Now, the foregoing scripture reference is important, being a direct and unequivocal affirmation of the principle of reincarnation. But, the following is actually more important.
    In this scriptural reference, the Master Jesus Christ is expressing the very nature of God in the willingness to forgive. And even the This character of God, (more)

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    oh, man… just checked back here and i can see y’all have been busy! salvation by grace and/or faith and/or works?my church says we’re saved by god’s grace alone – a gift from god ’cause he’s just so darned loving. of course it can’t be a gift in the usual sense of the word because there are some serious strings attached… like, i’ve got to believe the cockamamie stories in the bible – i.e., have faith. so, it’s not just a gift of god’s grace – you’ve got to have faith. i think peter and rco are saying “grace/faith” is “all” you need…. but that’s not what the bible says…james 2:14-14 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.20 You foolish person, 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so looks like it’s grace and faith and works.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    of course i only raise that “salvation by” discussion as a purely academic issue. i don’t really believe it’s salvation by grace and faith and works. there’s NO salvation… sorry guys: when you die, you’re dead.

  • GoldenEagles

    4 billion of these do not subscribe to any form of Christianity. According to Rcofield’s interpretation of scripture, these 4 billion souls will be assigned to eternal damnation. Moreover, of the 2 billion people who do subscribe to some form of Christianity, roughly one billion of those are Catholics. According to Rcofield’s interpretation of scripture, these Catholics are NOT Christians. Therefore, these additional 1 Billion individuals, according to Rcofield’s interpretation of the scripture, must also face the fate of eternal damnation. That means, according to Rcofield’s interpretation of scripture, that out of a total earth population of 6 Billion souls, 5 Billion of these must face eternal damnation.My thesis is that Rcofield’s scriptural interpretations, because it condemns 5 billion souls to eternal damnation, breaks the Law of Forgiveness, and therefore, whatever scriptural interpretation he used to reach that result, that interpretational methodology must be in ERROR. Consider the story in Matthew 18, where the Master Jesus Christ places on the record, the Law of Forgiveness, which is the Law of God:
    (more)

  • RCofield

    GOLDENEAGLES,Part 3 of 3And again: On the issue of reincarnation, you offer 4 posts consisting of some 1,000+ words claiming Scriptural “support” for this absurd claim. In those 4 posts you offer only And again: You have taken flight on “GoldenEagles'” wings and have soared into the nether-world of mystic Hinduism on the reincarnation issue. If you had ever been to India and seen first-hand the inhumane caste system that is built around this fictional belief you would be utterly repulsed.And again: The larger context of He. 9:27 is Why do you not respond to my counterpoint arguments? Do you find them difficult to refute? Or do you consider them beneath the dignity of your austere consideration?

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    i said, “… sorry guys: when you die, you’re dead.”rco said, “Humor me here for a moment. Are you absolutely certain that’s all there is to it?””absolutely”? well, no. that would be irresponsible of me to assert. what i can say is that we have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE for a soul that lives on after our body dies.and life after death is not just some random irrational belief like belief in unicorns. life after death is very easy to understand the motivation for wanting. but, if you think about it, do you really want to live forever? that’s a long time. do they have football and t.v. and golf up there? or is it just floating around basking in god’s glory or something… forever….btw, i see you worked out that blockquote problem. much more readable now.

  • peterhuff

    I actually dealt with this further down on this thread. What Peter and I are saying is that our salvation is entirely dependent upon the mercy and grace of God, and our good works follow as a result of our salvation, not as the means of earning it. These passages clearly state this – RCOThat is true. God’s grace in salvation is needed before the good works, otherwise it is works righteousness or earning your merit before God.We are all guilty before Him and will not come to Him unless He enables us to hear the message of the good news of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the heart will never cease its rebellion against God because it does not want to relinquish self and bow the knee.”For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will – to the praise of His glorious grace, which He freely has given us in the One He loves.” (Ephesians 1:4-6)”When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the Word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)The question is, did you see your need for the Savior and the merit of His sacrifice?”Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” (Romans 10″17)Will you believe it or dig your heals in all the more?

  • peterhuff

    Why do you not respond to my counterpoint arguments? Do you find them difficult to refute? Or do you consider them beneath the dignity of your austere consideration?Ditto, GoldenEagle.”The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:You are in error GoldenEagles and you are not listening to what the Spirit is saying through His word. You keep pulling out your own interpretations. It is bazaar that you find reincarnation in the Scriptures. It nowhere speaks of such things. You are mixing eastern religious philosophy together with Scripture to create your own cocktail.

  • peterhuff

    Hi Walter,”absolutely”? well, no. that would be irresponsible of me to assert. what i can say is that we have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE for a soul that lives on after our body dies.But you have. You are just not willing to look at it as evidence, and yet you apply the same principles to evolution and origins of the universe and life. You are willing to look at that as evidence. You use a double standard.

  • peterhuff

    Well, it is off to bed. Another 12 hour shift tonight.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    peter,

  • GoldenEagles
  • walter-in-fallschurch

    Do you think there exists any being that was not created by God?Posted by: RCofield | December 7, 2010 1:47 PMgod’s god.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    “by definition uncreated…” well, since he’s made up, i suppose you can define him anyway you like.i’m familiar w/occam’s razor. it can be used either to prove or disprove god.(btw…. it’s a HUUUUGE leap from any kind of generic god that could possibly be associated w/occam’s razor and the 6-day creation, noah’s flood god of the ancient hebrews.)

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco,generally, the occam’s razor argument against god goes roughly: if you suppose god created the universe, why not suppose whatever created god created the universe – and thereby skip the god step?anyway, occams’s razor is not some kind of immutable scientific “law” – it’s more of a philosophical principle. sometimes the answer is NOT the simplest answer.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    GoldenEagles,

  • RCofield

    GOLDENEAGLES,So…do you want to debate the real issues on the table here, or do you want to keep creating “straw-men” and “chasing rabbits?”

  • RCofield

    WALTER,Part 2 of 2
    anyway, occams’s razor is not some kind of immutable scientific “law” – it’s more of a philosophical principle. sometimes the answer is NOT the simplest answer.
    I agree completely that it is not immutable, and it is most definitely philosophical. But it is a logical and a reasonable starting point for comparison of views. Besides, when we debate the origin of the universe we have gone beyond the current purview of science anyway, right? LOL. I can’t believe I am trying to convince an atheist that it’s OK to use Occam’s Razor to debate the existence of God.

  • peterhuff

    Hi Walter,peter,
    i AM willing to look at evidence for life after death. do you have any?The Lord Jesus Christ Walter.You base your trust on evidence for origins and life on something you cannot see or repeat by science, so you use logic and reason to arrive at your conclusions. You highest authority seems to be evolving evolutionary science, but it too has it presuppositions.Christians base their trust on the God of the Bible, and He has given many infallible proofs (Acts 1:3 NJV). We know as certainty that God exists and that He rewards those who earnestly or diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). True evidence does not go counter to God’s word, but agrees with and confirms it.Ravi Zacharius echo’s similar thoughts on Stephen Hawking’s latest book in Ravi’s Christmas newsletter,”One look at Hawking’s book and you can readily see that it contains not a shred of new information. But Hawking’s has spoken and therefore, the world listens. Notable scientists such as Roger Penrose have written strong responses to Hawking’s book, suggesting that what he is propounding doesn’t even qualify as a theory. But suddenly the world is abuzz with “Hawking’s says, ‘No need for God.'” Just as the Garden of Eden is lived out every day in our lives, so is the story of the story of the emperor without clothes who, courtesy of marketing gimmicks, is made to look attired in an iron-clad impenetrable armor.But beyond the critical responses of some of Hawking’s fellow scientists is a haunting irony behind his audacious claim. I have a very basic question – I dare say, a discomforting one. If Hawking is right that physics has done away with the need for God as a first cause of the universe, then one must also conclude that life at its core has no essential worth. And if life at its core has no essential worth, then in hindsight, some relativist should have called for Hawking’s elimination in the womb, considering his debilitation from Lou Gehrig’s Disease. Thankfully, Hawking’s was given the privilege of birth, by virtue of the intrinsic sanctity of each human life that comes from the Judeo-Christian ethic, the very ethic he implicitly must deny if his naturalistic explanation of the universe is right. Amazing, isn’t it, that he has been given such god-like status when, in fact, his theory denies such an entity or such an ethic. When we play God we prove again and again that we become irrational to a point of self-destruction.”There you have it Walter. And you still have offered no suitable refutation for the necessity of absolutes or objectivity in defending the moral argument. So why is ‘your’ preference of any moral relevance? Because you say it is so Walter? Well, why ‘should’ anyone bow to your ‘humble’ opinion? Everybody, Walter says it is so, therefore we should believe it! His reasoning has determined it to be so!On such wars are fought.Do you see where I am coming from? God is necessary.

  • peterhuff

    Hi RCofield,Peter, I guess I was being somewhat presumptive in speaking on your behalf. But, given our “common hermeneutic,” (LOL) I know exactly where you are coming from and you know exactly where I am coming from. And this is so though we have never met and have had only a few direct exchanges on these threads. Pretty cool, huh? -RCO

  • GoldenEagles

    I will grant the point, if indeed, someone did say, that “God created everything.” If indeed someone did say that, they were guilty of uttering a destructive half-truth, especially in the earth context. This statement needs to be qualified. God did NOT create “everything”. God created everything that is GOOD. Fallen angels, demons, and men who are either consciously, or unconsciously allied with them, who are under their control from one degree to another, created everything that is bad. Though proportionality should be applied to this subject area. What proportion of the whole creation is GOOD? God’s creation is infinite. So there is infinite goodness therein. The creation of fallen man is finite, and compared to the whole, is essentially not worth mentioning. It is like an oily film on a few square feet of an infinite ocean. But even so, even within the broad expanse of divine civilizations which stretch out over the vastness of infinite domains, it would still be incorrect to say that God Created Everything, The citizens of heaven are not simply standing around basking in the light. They are all engaged in magnificent creative projects in partnership with the Lord God. Look at the creative powers that the Master Jesus Christ could demonstrate. These are rudimentary and common to all the citizens of heaven. This element of the truth, regarding the co-creative responsibilities and activities of the Children of God, is essential to include, but once you include that, then it is right to also say, that it is God alone, that provides the creative opportunity for their Children. Without the Lord God, there would be no creative opportunities at all. God provides all of the resources necessary to exercise our creative talents. God therefore is the ultimate source of all that is good. But not necessarily the creator of “all” good things. The artistic work of Norman Rockwell would illustrate this point. But it is also worth wondering, where does the Reality of God end in this expression of creative goodness of the divine child? Maybe it is intended to be one single ray of light. That is certainly the way it was, and is, with the Master Jesus Christ. But still, he too differentiated the Father from the Son, teaching us that this differentiation of the co-creative spheres is essential in understanding who we are.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, you said,I am positing that God created the universe, and that the universe finds its origin in Him. well, i personally don’t have a theory. as i’ve said, the current favored scientific theory is that anyway, so while i say “we don’t know”, seems to me like theists have jumped right to “god did it”. it’s like theists can’t handle uncertainty…so they place god(s) in those knowlege gaps… so, if that satisfies you then…well…fine. the need for certainty has caused people to invent all kinds of gods all throughout history. it amuses me to think of how everyone who believed (believes) in these ancient gods was the “god” that “caused” the big bang is not the god of judeochrislam, the god of the incas or aztecs, or the god of any religion i’ve ever heard of. the closest would be some of those wishy-washy kind of “eastern” “gods”, but even those degenerate into making assumptions on god-characteristics beyond what the evidence warrants.

  • GoldenEagles

    Remember my thesis, Rcofield, that a demonic presence is leaning upon your astral body with a strong force of hatred. And it uses that hatred to steer your mind in the direction it wants you to go. This is the same thing that happens in the homosexual mind, where the controlling demonic presence steers the mind away from this very same truth, one that would assist the homosexual to truly understand why God our Father, through the intercession of the Master Jesus Christ, is their only hope of salvation.I am trying to resurrect the importance of the Master’s teaching on the subject of demon possession, a teaching which is central and extensive, and you allow this demon presence to lean on you, and oppose this important area of exploration, even asserting that there is some scriptural authority. One of the few times you did not quote a string of scriptural references I would point out.Remember your point of vulnerability to this demonic influence. It is in your indulgence of hatred for Catholics. This is the entry point. True, we see that you are in a state of denial regarding this hatred for Catholics. But behind the capacity to tell a BIG LIE, and adhere to it, is a very large hatred for the truth, and most importantly, hatred for the more than ONE BILLION People to whom the LIE is directed. This is the LIE – “Catholics are not Christians.” A broad brush stroke falsehood that always originates in the demonic realm, and is always supported (in your mind) by their projections of darkness (into your mind on that point).I understand that you place great store in this non-existent distinction, between “Catholicism is not Christianity” your words oft repeated, and the message directly communicated thereby, that “Catholics are not Christians.” But this is no distinction at all.Catholics practice Catholicism. If Catholicism is not Christianity, therefore, “Catholics are not Christians.”Ideas are often cleverly communicated through innuendo and inference. The innuendo here, and the inference here are absolutely clear.Now, to clear up any confusion all you would need to say, is “I Believe Catholics are Christians.” But you have refused to say it. Why have you refused to say it? Because your demon controller won’t let you say it. So much hatred is directed at Catholics through you, you are not able to budge. And to deflect this revelation away from yourself, you are being led to attack the validity of the principle of demon manipulation in relationship to homosexuals, to whom it applies, and obviously so.You will know them by their fruits. What are the fruits of your efforts in this area? Prolonged slavery for homosexuals (and yourself).

  • peterhuff

    Hello Walter my friend,I will answer your post after thinking and praying about it(working 12 hour shifts this weekend), but I am impressed that someone was able to capture tape on Bigfoot.Until then, I read you responses to RCofield in my moments of spare time.

  • GoldenEagles

    Every American who understands the mortal danger that America faces to her very survival with each advance of the homosexual agenda, they can breathe a great sigh of relief at this victory, for the thin blue line held, and the nation stepped back, for a moment, from a head long plunge into the abyss of self-destruction.However, now is NOT the time to lay back, and bask in the afterglow of a victorious campaign. Now is the time to muster the troops anew, and to carry the battle forward, in pursuit of the retreating, cowering, and fleeing forces of darkness. Let our trumpets of victory ring out, that never again, could the forces of darkness come so close as to battering down the very gate of the American castle of truth and moral sanity. Summon now the forces of heaven, for they alone are up to the final task of delivering our nation into a new day of hope, and purity.To that end, let this prayer be on the lips of every patriot.O God, my Dear Heavenly Father, I Am That I Am, indeed, whose precious child I am, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, please send legions of Holy Angels now, marching triumphantly, to cast out all homosexuals from the U.S. Military, from all positions within our National Security Establishment, and from every position of responsibility in whatever department of American life they have entered with their corrupting spirit, especially throughout the educational institutions of our land, and in every department of the mass media, and throughout all government institutions, local, state and federal. Deliver our nation O God from the horror of this dark shadow of moral insanity. Fully accepting the promise of the Lord Jesus Christ, that that which I ask of you, in his name, that you will do. I therefore accept it done right now with full power. Amen.Every person, indeed every patriot, who is interested in the survival of America as a free and prosperous nation, should say this prayer every morning for the rest of their life. When your eyes open in the morning, reach for the paper that this prayer is printed on, and say it. In this way, will we never again have to face the prospect of so closely dodging such a fatal bullet, dripping with the poison of sinister intent, aimed at the very heart of our nation.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, you said,So can I mark you down as holding the hypothesis that the origin of the universe was caused by whatever caused the big bang but we don’t (and possibly can’t) know what that cause was?sure.

  • GoldenEagles

    Once the demonic control point is established, it can be a very long process indeed, to be set free from that state of slavery. In many cases it cannot be accomplished in a single life. God understands this, and gives the soul time to make the adjustment. Yes, in the principle of reincarnation, as it embodies the forgiveness and compassion of the Most High God, this is where the hope of victory resides for those who have become enslaved to the sexual manipulation of demonic forces.In like manner, when a Catholic Hater and Condemner (I won’t mention any names) is confronted with the idea that his urge to hate is neither normal nor natural, his whole being seems to rebel against this truth, and thus, the Catholic Hater and Condemner will need time to adjust. Moreover, when the Catholic Hater and Condemner comes to understand that if his very soul is to be saved, that if his very soul is ever to return to the native image of God, that an important choice is required of him in this regard, even to be set free from these urges to hate, the Catholic Hater and Condemner will need time to adjust to this new reality too, as his whole being seems to rebel against this as well.Again, once the demonic control point is established, it can be a very long process indeed, to be set free from that state of slavery. In many cases it cannot be accomplished in a single life. God understands this, and gives the soul time to make the adjustment. Yes, in the principle of reincarnation, as it embodies the forgiveness and compassion of the Most High God, this is where the hope of victory resides for those who have become enslaved to the hatred of demonic forces.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, to GE, you said,”Elementary. If Catholic “A” believes and has trusted that the finished work of Jesus Christ alone is sufficient for his salvation, and Catholic “B” believes that he “earns” his salvation by good works and penance, then Catholic “A” is a Christian and Catholic “B” is not a Christian.”hahahahaha…. those are definitely “weasel words”. basically: “a catholic who doesn’t have catholic beliefs is christian. a catholic who has catholic beliefs is not christian.” uh…ok.[i guess all of our recent agreement on periphery items was just a little too much for me to take… ;-)]

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, nevermind about the catholic thing. i’m sorry i said it. i don’t want to bother trying to split that hair. it’s semantics. i’m sure you believe catholics will go to heaven – which is basically my definition of christian.

  • GoldenEagles

    walter-in-fallschurch says, Are you kidding? It is hard to tell sometimes. RcoField is on record with his belief that all these souls (who don’t agree with his interpretation of scripture) face eternal damnation.See below where Rcofield says within the context of this Catholic debate, “To see someone embracing grave error that, if adhered to, will result in the damning of their soul … “ That’s right, not seeing scripture the way Rcofield sees it, will result in the DAMNING OF THEIR SOULS. One Billion Catholics thrown into the fire of eternal damnation. That is not a vision of love, but the opposite.

  • RCofield

    GOLEDNEAGLES,One other point that should be made here. In your last post you complained of my “interpretation” of Scriputre.You will recall that very early in our exchanges I posed the question of Now you want to complain about how I interpret scripture (though on this particular point scripture is hardly difficult to understand).So again, had you dealt with me with integrity, your current mischaracterization of my position could have been avoided.Perhaps you should not be as “comfortable” with your integrity and its purported “sufficiency” as you seem to be.

  • GoldenEagles

    Therefore, understanding fully all of these factors, that there is very little possibility or hope that any number of these souls will convert to Christianity, God our Father and Mother, still insist, year upon year, on creating millions, and millions, and millions, of Hindu children, who will grow up Hindu, live Hindu, and die Hindu, yes, investing great rivers of life into these children, knowing that they will never be able to convert to Christianity in a given lifetime, and at the end, he will have to consign the great majority of them to eternal damnation (if your reading of scripture is correct).I am assuming that you agree with me, that God is wise. For what purpose, then, is God creating all of this Hindu life, not simply to destroy it, but to consign this creation to no less than ETERNAL DAMNATION, which denotes a condition of eternal suffering as I understand it?Given that there appears to be NO HOPE at all that any substantial number of the people of the earth, will be in a position to convert to Christianity, from another tradition, why does God keep creating hundreds of millions of these people, that he knows before hand, that he will have to assign to eternal damnation (if your reading of scripture is correct)?(end)

  • GoldenEagles

    This is what I thought you believed, and you affirmed it, and with clarity..For the moment, I would like to set aside the question as to whether it is your personal interpretation which requires the damnation of these 5 billion souls, or the “crystal clear” words of the Master Jesus Christ which requires the damnation of 5 billion souls. I would like for you to consider a broader question.One must wonder why God our Father and Mother would keep making people, by the hundreds of millions, decade by decade, whom I am assuming that you agree with me, that God is all knowing. God is well aware, for example, that the majority of children born into the Hindu religion in India will be taught to (more)

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    GE, re: billions of damned souls:

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    GE, you said,One must wonder why God our Father and Mother would keep making people, by the hundreds of millions, decade by decade, whom They know will simply have to be thrown into the trash after a period of 60 or 70 years?an excellent point. a loving god could not do this!thus i have long advocated god just doing a 1000-mile-wide-in-the-sky-simul-cast address to the world. sadly, that will never happen for obvious reasons…but if he did exist, and made such an appearance, he could instantly clear up this whole question of “who’s got the right god?” we’re literally killing ourselves over it down here (islam), and have been for as long as anyone can remember (historically, all religions)…. i know, i know… then there wouldn’t be such a thing as faith… well whoop de doo.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco,the all-powerful god you’ve invented could surely put on a sky-show that would have everyone bowing in prostration…why doesn’t he do that?

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    instead of the 1000-mile-wide god show, we get him “revealing” himself to just a few people ast a time and hoping they can convince the rest of the world (many of whom claim they themselves have had a DIFFERENT god “reveal” himself to them). pretty crappy “plan” if you ask me.

  • GoldenEagles

    The fact is, that God our Father, from the beginning of the mission of the Master Jesus Christ, planned pretty much the kind of light show you are thinking about. Though in a manner, where the light would have a direct impact on the people. It was the promise recorded in John 14:12.
    When not just one person, but tens of thousands of the disciples of Jesus Christ can demonstrate that they can do the works that he did, and more, for example, walk on water, raise the dead, heal the sick, heal the blind, cleanse the lepers, make water into wine, demonstrate teleportation, multiply the loaves and fishes, cast out demons, cast out unclean spirits, make the blind to see, and so forth, you must admit, walter-in-fallschurch, in all honesty, that this would get your attention, even as it got the attention of the people in the day of Christ himself, and you would begin believing that indeed, there is something in the Teachings of Jesus Christ, when properly understood, that would be worth listening to, especially as these true disciples explain that all of these things can be done by ALL people, including you. That God gives these powers to all of his children without limit, and will restore them to those (on earth) who agree to return to the domain of love and forgiveness and respect for his laws.Truly, God our Father would demonstrate this, if only (his most faithful servants) had the capacity to believe it, that the lot of man was not intended to be this life of conflict and mediocrity that you see on the earth today. O but much more, a life of freedom, abundance, power, peace, and achievement, commensurate with a true son and daughter of the Most High God.

  • GoldenEagles

    (phrasing correction: …. you must admit, walter-in-fallschurch, in all honesty, that this would get your attention, even as it got the attention of the people in the day of Christ himself, and as a result, you too would begin believing that indeed, there is something in the Teachings of Jesus Christ, when properly understood … )

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    GE,

  • RCofield

    CORRECTION:”Saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ resulting in the New Birth is a supernatural work wrought in the heart by God the Holy Spirit alone. Consider:”SHOULD READ:”Saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the result of the New Birth, which is a supernatural work wrought in the heart by God the Holy Spirit alone. Consider:”

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, you said,You mean like the spectacular Northern Lights or breathtaking meteor showers? Oh, wait. We have “natural” explanations for these, don’t we? Except…we don’t know what (or who) “caused” the elements that produce these phenomena.come on. northern lights!? apples and oranges. (actually, more like apples and battleships or something). nature’s full of beautiful phenomena. the northern lights, while an awesome sight, DON’T TALK.that’s actually the kind of thing i’m talking about that’s causing all these religion problems in the world. believers (of each specific faith) want us to take these ambiguous events as “signs” from (their specific) god. puleeze… is that the best he can do? we’re supposed to think the northern lights or are signs from god? which god? or how ’bout that 1000-mile-wide-jesus-in-the-sky? maybe he could make it “talk magically” like someone, an egyptian i believe, also said they saw ra fly into the sun…. who should i believe…————i just had to laugh to avoid crying when that ball slipped through the holder’s hands. i guess god chose to answer some tampa bay fan’s prayers instead of a redskin fan’s?

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”Who is this “nature” character you refer to?”Why do you automatically believe that it’s a “who”?”Do you mean “Mother” nature?”Who, or what, is “Mother” nature?”She’s the “one” responsible for all the awesome phenomena we see?”What makes you believe that?”Is she possibly the “something” that “caused” the Big Bang?”That does not sound likely, but, again what makes you believe that?”Can you tell me more about her?”You tell us; you’re the one who brought “her” up.”She sounds like an awesome gal.””She” sounds like a myth to me.”Has she ever made herself known to you?”You tell us; you’re the one who brought “her” up.”Maybe she could do a “1000 mile wide simulcast in the sky” to tell us more about herself…”Do you really believe that?”The point being, you are attributing some pretty impressive stuff to an utterly abstract concept.”As you are with your “god”?”These phenomena in “nature” don’t take place in a vacuum; they have a first and moving cause.”How do you know that?”I don’t think it’s “Mother Nature.””Then why do you bring “her” up?[bibley stuff expurgated]”This statement of scripture has infinitely more evidence to support it than does your “nature” assertion.”I see no evidence in your magic words.”I watched a spectacular sunrise this morning.”I’m sure many people did as well.”That’s pretty contemporary.”Yes, it is.”Of course, if “Mother Nature” caused that to happen, I’m certainly open to learning more about her….”Are you exchanging your “god” myth for this “mother nature” myth?

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, you said,you are attributing some pretty impressive stuff to an utterly abstract concept. These phenomena in “nature” don’t take place in a vacuum; they have a first and moving cause. I don’t think it’s “Mother Nature.”uh… no, you are attributing sentience to utterly natural phenomena. do you think there are “gravity angels” pushing (or possibly pulling…) objects with mass together – a la “intelligent falling” theory? furthermore, you assert as for the “nature” i speak of being awed by, it is just the world around us. i ascribe no sentience to it. but, if you want to include/revise my big-bang-causing “something” into “nature”, fine.you quoted that psalm verse. it was lovely. if only scripture remained that vague, i could “get behind it”. it’s the crazy, ignorant, provincial stuff like “jesus rose from the dead so i could live forever” and “god created the world we see around us in 6 days” and “believing any other conception of god lands you in hell forever” junk that makes the whole bible lose credibility w/me.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, i’ve lost it, but did you ever post a link to our old thread on this thread?

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”You are unfamiliar with the commonly posited phrase “Mother Nature?””Nope.”I can’t, and I didn’t.”walter-in-fallschurch wrote, “…nature’s full of beautiful phenomena.”You replied, “Do you mean “Mother” nature?”Note that walter-in-fallschurch never alluded to “mother nature”; only you alluded to “mother nature”.”Do you think God is an abstract concept?”In my experience, some of the people who believe in a god or gods, believe them to be abstract; other people who believe in a god or gods, believe them to be concrete.Also in my experience, many people who believe that they believe in the same god or gods that other people believe in, believe differently in the god or gods than do the other people who believe in the seemingly same god or gods.Your, peterhuff’s, and GoldenEagles discussion for the past weeks are a perfect example of what I have experienced from god-believers most of my life.”Are you aware of any effects that caused themselves?”Nope; nor am I aware of any gods, angels, saints, devils, demons, unicorns, evil, morality, reincarnation, heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, zen, karma, evil, miracles, etc.”Do you feel better now?”Not particularly; then again, I don’t feel any worse, either.”Perhaps you are either not looking for evidence or you are looking for it in the wrong places.”Does that work for you?”Nothing gets past you, does it?”Many things get past me.”See what I mean?”Rarely, if ever.”Why exchange reality for a myth?”Don’t you mean, “Why exchange what I believe to be reality for a myth?”?

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco,i understand that “mother nature” is just part of what you call “god”. while it’s true i never said “mother” nature, i very easily could have. it’s a just metaphor – a figure of speech. of course i don’t believe there’s actually a female (or male) presence “behind” nature. it’s just nature, the natural world, the physical world. you on the other hand really do think there’s reason to say “he” causes northern lights and sunsets etc…you asked,So…are you attributing all “natural phenomena” to “natural causes?” Are you comfortable with attributing the cause of the universe to non-sentient “natural causes,” or am I not understanding your use of the term “nature?”well, as far as i’m concerned there are no “un-natural phenomena”. at least i’ve never seen any evidence of any. they could be there – there’s just no evidence so far. as for whether “natural causes” caused the big bang, as i’ve said, i can’t really say. it could be un-natural causes, i suppose, but given that we’ve found natural causes for storms, earthquakes, crop circles, missed extra points, leprosy, auditory and visual hallucinations, etc…, i’m leaning toward natural causes.you asked,If you were somehow forced to choose between a “providential” God and a detached “non-providential” god, which would you prefer?”prefer? i don’t really see it as a matter of preference. given the evidence, i’d strongly have to suspect if there’s a god that it’s a non-providential god – or…if it’s a “providential” god, that it’s not all-good and all-powerful…(given world hunger, diseases, our poor design etc…)nonetheless, when you say “providential god” i assume you’re talking about i’ll have to think about that.

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”Did you notice the question marks?”Yes.”Or the tongue-in-cheek nature of my “mother nature” line of questioning?”No.”Yes, but to you think God is an abstract concept?”For me, it is not a concept at all; it is a superstition.”And if so, do you think that in the abstract or the concrete?”I don’t think about it at all; neither in the abstract, nor in the concrete.”You know, I’ve noticed the same thing about a number of other subjects as well. Why do you think that is?”I’m sure that there are many reasons.”Then you have simply not yet followed the chain of effect/cause far enough to recognize the gaping holes in your thinking.”Don’t expect me to see the things that you choose to believe to see.”You ain’t payin’ attention. But not to worry. You’ll recognize it when it happens to you.”Are you saying that all of the things that you choose to believe in will eventually happen to me?And, that the things that you choose not be believe in, will not eventually happen to me?Do you also believe that all of the things that GoldenEagles chooses to believe in will also eventually happen to me?Or, are your beliefs more absolutely true that GoldenEagles’ beliefs?Or, are your beliefs simply the only absolutely true beliefs?Is there a single person in this earth who has a belief that is as equally absolutely true, or more absolutely true, than any of your absolutely true beliefs?”That’s OK. It wasn’t a test.”It wasn’t anything.”Didn’t you mean “Are you exchanging what I think is a god myth for this “mother nature” myth?”? “Close enough.

  • GoldenEagles

    Some people might think you are losing your head Rcofield, when you start confusing me with Psolus.

  • GoldenEagles

    You have got to stop hating the idea of exorcism.You have got to stop hating the Master’s teaching on demon possession.You have got to stop hating that portion of the Master’s teaching that points to the central importance of obedience to his commandments, especially when it comes to loving your neighbor as yourself. You have got to stop hating that portion of the teaching that points to the centrality of love as the only criteria for salvation. If you cannot come into alignment, by freewill choice with the program of love that the Master outlined, you cannot be saved. Reality check. Isn’t it the demons themselves that refuse to come into alignment with the requirements of love? Indeed. And can they be saved? No. Isn’t their refusal to bend the knee to love, reflected through you in your one-pointed need to hate 5 billion people unto eternal damnation?You have got to stop hating that portion of the teaching that points to the centrality of the expression of forgiveness.You have got to stop loving this damnation ideology that has its origin in the demonic realm.What difference is there, in all truth, between the force of hatred that moved against the feeling world of Adolf Hitler, that had him believing that all jews needed to be swept from the face the of the earth, and the force of hatred that presses so powerfully against you, that has you believing that the 4 billion non-christians on this planet must be snuffed out by the fires of eternal damnation, along with 1.2 billion (“non-christian”) Catholics. I know, “God” will do the dirty work in your case.Reality check. What you desire for others, that is what you will receive for yourself. In my effort to step on, and squash the black widow spider (an allegory for the force of hatred that keeps stinging you in the head), you may mistake this for trying to step on your own head. You need to move beyond this mistaken impression, and understand that what is influencing you towards hatred, is no part of your true identity in God. (end)

  • GoldenEagles

    Actually, I have already mentioned one example of what might constitute a One example of what might constitute greater works, would be to bring forth the technology that would allow people like yourself (Rcofield) who have no spiritual vision, to SEE the demonic entities that are pressing their hatred energies on your feeling world, giving you finally, the opportunity to understand the state of slavery that you operate under, helping you SEE exactly to what extent these hatred energies act to corrupt the operation of your judgment faculties, and thus, to enable you thereby, to take appropriate action in the direction of your own freedom. Clearly, at that point, you will become a believer in the central importance of the Master’s teaching on the casting out of demons, and unclean spirits.It might be imagined that the reaction of some people to this new vista of truth, which this new technology would make possible, would be to inspire them to an even greater alliance with the dark side, to accept these demonic influences as some sort of pet, and thus defend them, creating a new constituency for If you find a black widow spider in a dark box in your basement, the reaction is to close that box quickly, to take it upstairs, and outside, even into the sunlight, and empty it onto the patio. As the black widow spider tries to scurry away, you will smash it, with a feeling of utter disgust, under the heal of your tennis shoe. This will be the universal reaction of everyone to these demonic presences, which have a hold upon them, or upon anyone else. Now, you might not think it possible to live one’s life with a colony of ticks feeding off the blood at the top of the head. And you tell them, you must get rid of that colony of ticks! They are disgusting! And the person says, what ticks? NEWS ALERT! This technology will expose the truth. And there will be many who will reach for the remedy (Obedience and Light) in that day. And that day is not far off.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    Here you have an unbeliever in walter-in-fallschurch, when presented with the promise of the Master Jesus Christ, whose heart exhibited some hope, which is exactly the hope of the Master Jesus Christ himself, and you (Rcofield) come and trample all over it. That is very sinister. This shows us that there is an anti-christ energy that has control of your mind, than can turn it on a dime in opposition to the highest hopes and dreams of the Master Jesus Christ himself.Connect the dots. One of the reasons that hatred for Catholics is so strong in you Rcofield, is that Catholics are the only one’s on the planet who have kept the tradition of exorcism alive. The demonic presence that leans its hatred upon you, so strongly as to use you as a pawn to repudiate that very promise of the Master Jesus Christ, hates the idea of exorcism, as that is what would set you free from its influence.As I noted before, hatred for Catholics had its origin in the black heart of a demonic presence on the astral plane which presses its hatred against the feeling world of those who have a taste for hatred, and thus, can steer them, in this direction, or that direction, in opposition to the highest hopes and dreams of the Master Jesus Christ himself, with no less alacrity, than if they had both hands on the steering wheel. The time is now, Rcofield, to read the signs, especially in your indulgence of various kinds of hatred, and to reach the proper conclusions as to the origin of that hatred, and to do the work necessary to break this alliance you have made with the forces of hatred, before the day comes, when this technology will expose the fact of this alliance to your very eyes.In that day will you praise God for those disciples who can do the works which Jesus Christ did, and greater works. It would be better for you to be, in that day, one of those disciples.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    Indeed, they will NOT BELIEVE in the Teaching of the Master Jesus Christ on the central requirement of Love. And in not believing in the centrality of this teaching, they cannot believe in the Master Jesus Christ in any manner that could be considered accurate. If they will not bend the knee before this teaching, and jettison their hatreds, there is nothing they can say about the Master Jesus Christ, that could be considered accurate. As it is all geared, in the most self-serving manner, towards the justification of their hatreds. Indeed, they use the Teaching of the Master of Love to justify their Hatreds!Indeed, they will stubbornly cling to their hatreds, thinking this to be the highest wisdom of their belief system, as we see in RcoFields hatred of Catholics (and his hatred of the promise of the Master Jesus Christ as set forth in John 14:12)The works and miracles manifest by Jesus Christ, according to the Will of The Father, who after all, is the doer of the works, are intended to pull the people in the largest middle category towards the Light, to inspire them to gather around the doer of the works, to hear the word of God, so that they can come to understand how they can ultimately find their way home to the Higher Heavenly Estates from which they fell so long ago.The central pillar of the Plan and Purpose of God, for the conversion of the people of the entire planet unto the Teachings of Jesus Christ, was the scenario put forth by the Master Jesus Christ in John 14:12.
    If one, and then ten, and then hundreds, and then thousands, and then tens of thousands of the Disciples of Christ, could fulfill this promise, you would have the entire population of the earth flocking to the Teachings of Jesus Christ.Truly, the demonic world HATES THIS SCENARIO WITH A PASSION, as their sway over the people of the earth would finally come to an end. And yes, we see this very hatred pressed upon the feeling world of Rcofield, and this is why his brain and his mouth moves in opposition to it.Indeed, here is the methodology of victory spoken to by the Master Jesus Christ himself, and Rcofield feels like he must destroy it.(more)

  • GoldenEagles

    This could only be an And it is apparently true for you, as we see evidence right here, of a very strong hatred of the magnificent promise of Christ himself pressing upon your feeling world, to which you give repeated utterance. Rcofield, you need to come to terms with the Teaching of Jesus Christ on the casting out of demons, as this is the very factor that makes a person a stubborn and intransigent non-believer, and moreover a babbler of irrationalities. Babbler of irrationalities? Yes, you have given too many examples of that, and here is the latest. In response to my quotation of John 14:12, and my subsequent list of the works that we know that the Master Jesus Christ demonstrated, this is your first argument:
    “The “works” you point Walter to are not Let’s look at the PROMISE OF JESUS CHRIST one more time:
    According to your point of view, the fact that I gave a list of the works the Disciple is most likely to manifest first, according to the promise, before he or she would go onto greater works, amounts to a misinterpretation of the passage. You say this amounts to To speak such absurdities, which elicit the quality of pity in every heart who reads them, requires you to go to the breaker panel, and switch off the lights to all of the rooms in your house. And then in the darkness, you fashion an argument that does not even take into account the words of the Master himself, even in the very same passage.What is it that switches all the lights off in your house? And leaves you alone in the dark to fashion arguments without reference to the most rudimentary resources of perspective that light itself would give you? It is that demonic presence that leans on your feeling world with intense hatred. That force of hatred is a cloud of darkness.(more)

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”So you conceptualize God as a superstition.”No, I don’t conceptualize superstitions.”Yet you conceptualize God in the abstract as a superstition and you are certain that you are right in the concrete.”No, I don’t conceptualize superstitions.”I expect nothing of you.”Good; you won’t be disappointed.”I don’t recall saying that.”You wrote: “You ain’t payin’ attention. But not to worry. You’ll recognize it when it happens to you.”What, exactly, do you believe will happen to me?”There are no degrees of truth.”Do you believe that there are absolute truths?”Truth is absolute whether you, Goldeneagles, or myself choose to believe it or not.”Which absolute truths do you choose not to believe?”Truth is a stand-alone category. Whether you, Goldeneagles, or myself choose to believe truth or not, truth cannot be “equaled” or “increased.””Which stand-alone truths do you choose not to believe?”Do you think that is so?”I see no reason not to.”I thought you thought so.”I’m sure that you believe that you believed that I thought so.

  • RCofield

    GOLDENEAGLES,I have but two questions in response to your most recent seven-part rant:First, can you “walk on water, raise the dead, heal the sick, heal the blind, cleanse the lepers, make water into wine, demonstrate teleportation, multiply the loaves and fishes, cast out demons, cast out unclean spirits, and make the blind to see?”And secondly, have you developed “technology” that can “reveal demonic presence” in my “astral body?”

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”Yet you consistently state that you think the concept of God is superstitious.”Belief in a god or gods is superstitious.”That’s disappointing.”Oh, well.”When evil is perpetrated on you, personally, you will recognize it for what it is.””Evil” is simply a superstition; if a person doesn’t believe in a superstition, that person is immune from that superstition.”Truth is absolute by definition. False truth is nonsensical on the face of it.”Well, that makes things easy.”None.”I’m sure that you believe that you believe only in absolute truth.”None.”I’m sure that you also believe that you believe only in stand-alone truth.”Are you sure, or do you just think so?”I’m sure.

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”And thus, without supportive reason, you conceptualize God in the abstract, conclude belief in Him superstitious in the abstract, and then declare your abstractly conceived conception in the concrete.”Does your writing that make your god any less of a superstition?Try praying to your god, and asking him to do something useful.”By the same method of non-reasoning one could simply declare smallpox to be a “superstition” and then declare themselves immune from smallpox on the basis of having simply declared it a superstition. And yet still contract smallpox.”Does your writing that make evil any less of a superstition?”That is actually not what you asked me.”No, that is what you state.”And that, too, is actually not what you asked me.”Again, that is what you state.”And surety in the face of contrary evidence is delusion.”You have no evidence, contrary or otherwise; you have only your beliefs.

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”No more than your writing that God is a superstition makes Him a superstition.”Except, of course, that all gods are superstitions.”His existence remains unaffected by what either of us think or write.”Just as his nonexistence is unaffected by what you choose to believe.”You mean like Him sustaining your life this morning?”Ah, so you prayed to your ham and cheese omelette god this morning?Are you also going to pray to your fish taco god this afternoon, and your lasagna god this evening?”No more than your writing that God is a superstition makes Him a superstition.”So, your god is “evil”?”His existence remains unaffected by what either of us think or write.”Again, your god is “evil”?”No, that is actually what you have chosen to think.”Am I wrong?What non-absolute truths do you believe?”And again, no, that is actually what you have chosen to think.”Am I wrong?What non-stand-alone truths do you believe?”Yet it is not I but you that gratuitously posts abstractly conceived conclusions as if they were concrete, and that with no supporting argumentation.”I don’t have to provide supporting argumentation for reality; you cannot provide supporting argumentation for your beliefs.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco,are you denying that god made small pox?as to first cause and the big bang and the regression of causes idea and so forth, this is where i have to cry “no fair” to your defining god as “uncaused”. you can’t claim that. or, if you can, i can claim that the matter/energy in the universe is uncaused… i would think, that whatever caused god could have just skipped god and caused the universe.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    rco, re small pox, you said,well, if you say that little kid “did” something to deserve small pox, then i’d like to know what. if you say it’s because of adam’s and/or eve’s sin, then that demonstrates that (your concept of) god is not just – to punish this kid (and supposedly everyone else in the history of the world) for someone else’s sin is, well… evil…

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    i said,but just for fun, if you’re gonna go ahead and call this “thing that caused the universe” “god”, you’re still light years away from yahweh, the god invented by the ancient israelites who collects people in chariots of fire, parts water, and poofs fully-formed humans into being on the sixth day.

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”All gods without exception?”Yes; all previously imagined gods, all currently imagined gods, and all future imagined gods.”The personal pronoun kinda takes the zip out of the “nonexistence” postulation.”No, you simply want to believe that it does.”That series of questions managed both utter randomness and a total lack of lucidity.”No, it just mocks your childish belief that your imaginary three-in-one® god sustains my life.Your imaginary god does not sustain my life any more than any of the thousands of other imaginary gods sustain my life, or anyone’s life for that matter.”Well, aren’t you special!”No.”Actually, you don’t think I can provide supporting argumentation for what I believe.”No, I’ve seen you attempt many times to provide supporting argumentation for what you believe, and I’ve seen you fail miserably each time.Your magical book of magical sayings provides evidence of nothing other than the fertile imagination of mankind.”But then, you don’t even understand what I believe.”I’m doubtful that you understand what you believe; I’m guessing that you’ve been told to believe what you believe by so many people, over such a long period of time, that you have simply found it easiest to choose to believe what you are told without thinking about it at all.If you had been born in a different part of the world, you would probably simply believe something entirely different from what you currently believe.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    psolus, you said,If you had been born in a different part of the world, you would probably simply believe something entirely different from what you currently believe.i’ve read that place-of-birth is the number 1 predictor of a person’s religion. seems kind of…well…evil of god to condemn vast swaths of humanity based on where they were born, as rco and peter imagine happens.

  • walter-in-fallschurch

    this is the never ending thread. maybe they’ll let us just go on and on…?

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”We are, I think, in agreement that the universe was caused by “something” outside itself.”There is no way that anyone can know that, therefore it would be foolish to agree to that, and even more foolish to attempt to argue anything from that.”I presume (correct me if I am wrong) that on that basis you would agree that matter and energy (the composition of the universe) cannot “cause” themselves.”That depends on what you mean by “cause”.What is the current scientific theory regarding “cause”?”If that is the case, you can’t appeal to an “uncaused” universe.”What is the current scientific theory regarding “uncaused”?”As I am sure you are aware, prior to Big Bang theory there were a number of scientists who contended that the material universe, in the words of Carl Sagan, was “all there ever has been or ever will be.””Prior to Big Bang theory, there were many scientists who contended many theories about the universe.”Given that the Big Bang establishes a “genesis,” or beginning of the universe,…”What makes you believe that that is a given?”…and the Second Law of Thermodynamics establishes that the universe will eventually reach a point of maximum entropy (and presumably come to some sort of “end”),…”What makes you believe that the Second Law of Thermodynamics establishes that?”…that theory is completely blown out of the water.”What makes you believe that a fundamentalist preacher knows more about cosmology that the thousands of cosmologists who are actively researching cosmology all over the world?

  • PSolus

    RCofield,”Yet you have described, in graphic detail on numerous occasions, your worship of yourself as your own little god.”No, you have simply chosen to believe that I have.”Are you your own private superstition?”No.”Well, well. That seems to have touched a nerve.”Does that belief make your life easier for you?”You’re not struggling with the reality of your own mortality by any chance, are you?”No.”Oh, but you are, Peregrine, you are! You manage to tell us so regularly.”No, you have simply chosen to believe that I have.”Your confusion may have something to do with the fact that you have self-evidently never personally encountered biblical Christianity and are confessedly, proudly, and utterly unfamiliar with the bible.”Perhaps, but how do you explain your failure to provide supporting argumentation for what you believe?”Yet further evidence of the above statement. People who try to intelligently refute Scripture at least have the integrity to familiarize themselves with it.”I see no reason to refute your magical beliefs.”Yes, I am sure you are quite confident that I could never think for myself in a manner comparable to Peregrine the Great.”Are you hitting on me?”Of course, if that were unilaterally the case (which it is not), then you would suffer from the exact same malady that you imagine I suffer from.”Wrong; I believe nothing, and if I were born somewhere else, I would probably still believe nothing.”Your regurgitation of this tired pseudo-maxim actually proves nothing more than that you aren’t quite the “free-thinker” you fancy yourself to be.”I don’t fancy myself to be a “free-thinker”; do you believe that I am a “free-thinker”?